Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 20:17:21 -0000
Hi,
I hear this is the place to ask about software. I?m looking at installing a new application, and I hope there are some folks with some related experience.
Currently, we are running PowerChurch <https://www.powerchurch.com/> on a Windows machine. I?m not a fan, mostly due to the difficulty of getting information out of it, since it creates a clunky format. We have people who routinely do more work in the system than I do, and they are understandably apprehensive about transitioning to a new system. It?s also installed on a standalone machine with a manual backup system that relies on a thumb drive. I?ll admit that I have a bias against Microsoft, but the current system looks like it is straight outta 1997. The system works and nobody is complaining (much).
I?m looking at ChurchCRM <https://github.com/ChurchCRM/CRM> run on CentOS <https://www.centos.org/> and served first through our existing wifi network and later through our existing web-facing host with OpenVPN <https://openvpn.net/>. The plan, such as it is, is to print out all the current data from the existing system, then write a Perl script to parse it and jam it straight into the MariaDB <https://mariadb.org/> database. I would test the install first on a Raspberry Pi <https://www.raspberrypi.org/> server before buying hardware to support it, so the users can get the feel for the new system without any cost. I?ve already tested it on a Pi, and the install was pretty painless, but those things are not terribly reliable. I?d probably transition to a beefier machine in production, then use the Pi for database backup, with a little help from Jenkins <https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Meet+Jenkins>, of course. Jenkins is always so helpful.
So?any thoughts? Is this the right place for the discussion?
-Bennett Upton
All Souls UU Shreveport
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Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 20:50:59 -0000
I wouldn't change. I've used a lot of systems and I like the simplicity of power church. I have no problem getting information out and dumping it into Excel using custom reports. It's a lot of work to change a system. Unless you have some strong reason for switching, I'd stick with Powerchurch.
Al Gundlach
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Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 22:26:09 -0000
My main advice would be to get a true web-based system that works with both
Apple and Microsoft browsers and has good mobile phone support. Any kind
of VPN solution is an unnecessary complication in today's world. Having
someone else deal with updates and backups is wonderful. There are a lot
of church management systems out there. This link give you an overview of
many of them:
http://www.capterra.com/church-management-software/spotlight/2675/IconC….
I will say that Breeze seems to be getting a lot of attention lately, but I
have no direct knowledge of it.
Dale Lewellyn
Mn Valley UU Fellowship
161/$250K
On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Church Management Software, Security and
Utilities via ChurchMgmtSoftware <churchmgmtsoftware at lists.uua.org> wrote:
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Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 22:27:03 -0000
To be honest most of your post I don't understand but that's okay. We have used POWER CHURCH Online for several years very successfully. Financial accounting using several funds, pledge accounting, membership records (individual and household), mailing lists, etc. We don't use the library module, calendar, inventory, visitation/attendance. Works with PC and Mac.
Tom
Tom Loughrey
Orange Coast
Costa Mesa CA
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 01:03:53 -0000
On 01/28/2017 03:17 PM, Church Management Software, Security and
Utilities via ChurchMgmtSoftware wrote _[in part]_:
This makes it sound as though you planned to print onto paper. That,
from my point of view would be a disaster requiring optical character
recognition, etc.
Perhaps you were meaning: 'download data in a format that could be
opened by [word processor | spreadsheet]. That would make a good deal of
sense --- if the old system could not export its data in a format that
could be read by a new system.--
--
===============
Michael Rulison
919 205 9168 (mobile phone)
3256 LEWIS FARM RD, RALEIGH NC 27607-6723
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 03:34:56 -0000
I offer an additional perspective in support of " My main advice would be to get a true web-based system that works with both Apple and Microsoft browsers and has good mobile phone support."
I recommend AGAINST installing anything that requires so much work and expertise by you. Who will support it when you are not available? Can the next tech person understand it well enough to update it?
I have about 45 years of computer tech experience, 33 for pay, the rest volunteer. And while my expertise is mostly in software design and support I do have some hardware savvy. People at your level of hardware and network expertise are few and far between. Don't put your church's finances at risk by putting a custom solution in place. Take your knowledge and energy and apply it to ways to improve the reports since that is the issue you identified.
Peg Fay-Feder
Ohio - Heritage UU Church
~150 / ~$200K
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 03:49:31 -0000
+1 for the cloud.
Having moved from church to church myself a couple of times, I regret
having left behind systems that were difficult at best to pass on to
others with varying levels of experience. Pony up for a commercial
package with good support and assurances they handle updates and backups
and DR, and let your church folks concentrate on maintaining the data
and financials. I also came around to supporting moving the web site to
a Wordpress hosting company for similar reasons. We've got more folks
working on the site than just me, now.
And I'm a system/network/security professional with over 20 years
experience in the field, so it was easy to go down the roll-your-own
road pretty far before turning back...
Best regards,
-- Cal Frye, Building and Grounds, Postmaster,
Oberlin (Ohio) UU Fellowship, www.ouuf.org, ~55 members
Treasurer, [Former] Ohio Meadville District
"The real measure of your wealth is how much you'd be worth if you lost
all your money." --Anonymous.
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 05:06:11 -0000
<e3pZ1u00D29Fo6h013pZfK>
+2 for the cloud!
As a retired computer software professional, I headed up our Green Valley AZ
UU church transition from an in-house kludge of Meminfo/Quickbooks to the
cloud based IconCMO system -- reasonable price, outstanding support, fully
integrated, accessible from any web browser. Yes, a learning curve, but
well worth the effort. We would never go back.
Larry Parker
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 05:24:39 -0000
I get it, probably no other solution any more, but we read about so many hacks: Target comes to mind as one of the biggest. Yeah, a stand-alone system may be vulnerable, but not such an obvious target (pun not intended). . . .
Sally Gellert
CUC, Paramus, N.J.
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 13:59:57 -0000
Well, I have that discussion from both sides as a non-profit CFO/Controller
and as a CPA/consultant. That argument became a one-sided one in my opinion,
once most people wanted to do their transactions - from donations and
pledges to buying tickets to the JCC theater - on the Internet. Once that
happens, it means that your system, if efficient, now or in the future, will
have at a minimum interactive links to the Internet. Those are managed by
either you or a third party and most third party hosts have far more tools
and expertise in managing Internet security.
I think I was hammered on this topic most at the DCJCC, where we had a lot
of data transfers, from donations and contributions to sales of various
types. The Executive Director was paranoid that personal data would leak
from our data about one of the primary donors, so we spent a loooong time
looking at data security. No matter how we looked at it, we simply could not
provide the level of security internally at any point that a well-chosen
provider could, or at anywhere near the cost. (And if it DID happen, we
would have someone else to blame - just joking, mostly, sort of.)
In my opinion, the only way to keep a stand-alone system as an island of
security in most organizations is to walk back the efficiencies you can get
from Internet transactions. Just my opinion.
-Curtis Russell, Treasurer
Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Lawrence
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 14:51:43 -0000
Not denying that; just concerned as we go more and more digital, online, and centralized. I am not seeing it as a positive step for our society. I also doubt that anything will happen to derail it save a major disaster.
Going a bit further afield, and not directly on topic, have folks here been seeing anything about negative interest rates or going cashless (the second sort-of a necessity for the first to work)? Pretty scary stuff for those of us who like to control our own finances and annoying to we who prefer to keep our choice of coffee shop private.
Sally Gellert
CUC, Paramus, N.J.
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 22:46:56 -0000
This is great, I really appreciate the feedback:)
I definitely hear the concerns about keeping a system that can be maintained by the tech novice. IconCMO looks pretty slick, as does Breeze, though they both come at a price. Sticking with what we have is also a real option.
1. With IconCMO, they offer a larger system that would allow someone (for example, the UUA) to track trends in attendance and membership. Is there any movement afoot to standardize this kind of system so we can actually see good demographic data?
2. With the online hosted systems (IconCMO, PowerChurchOnline, BreezeChMS?) the company hosting the application has access to all the data. Has anyone had the conversation about what they get to do with our data? I guess I?m skeptical of their good intentions since so many companies just sell this kind of data.
3. With the online giving options, are they taking a cut for each transaction (like PayPal)? We tried an online payment service and ditched it due to the cost. We take checks now.
4. When changing the system over to a web-based service like those mentioned above, is there an easy way to import legacy data? Has anyone actually done that, or are most people just scrapping old data?
5. One day, that cool web-based system will be replaced with something shinier and newer. Do they offer a way to dump the database to migrate over to their competitors? Or would we lose our data?
Also:
Michael Rulison: The current system will export to spreadsheet, but the format is a nightmare. I would use Perl to programmatically parse the text and SQL to add it to the database directly. A one time effort to transfer our old data to a new system. I guess when I say ?print?, I always mean ?print to screen? because paper is super lame.
Sally Gellert: I share your concern, and I pay my own pledge with my bank?s bill pay service. Just because you aren?t paranoid doesn?t mean they aren?t hacking your website. I have no plans to manage any interactive web-exposed content since I don?t have the expertise.
Dale Lewellyn: I would only use the VPN to restrict access to the site to prevent security issues, since we don?t have the on-hand expertise to secure an interactive website. I?m proposing using a web server to deliver the application, but keeping it behind a firewall, so it never sees traffic from the internet.
Peg Fay-Feder: The plan that I?ve been working on is using Jenkins to create a push-button install for the whole application. I can script the process from the installation of the OS to connecting the database to the front end, all without human interaction. Still, you have a very valid point if that system breaks. It also applies to the current system, since only one person can fix that, too. I?ve tried to fix the reports, but since it?s closed-source software, I can only cobble together some scripts to make changes to them.
I really appreciate everyone?s feedback, and I?m sure our board will appreciate it, too, since they get to make that call in the future.
-Bennett Upton
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 23:01:00 -0000
Two issues should be part of your initial discussion with the vendor. However, it is not only highly unusual for a vendor to use your data in any way, in several of the largest states it is illegal from the get go. As most vendors want to do business in all states, those restrictions would/should prevail.
If anything, transfer of data has gotten easier since long ago where most data bases were somewhat proprietary (I do mean long ago, as in dBase III and others of that era). Even the most protected data bases in structure export to common data files. Again, the discussion should be had about who owns the data and what happens in case of bankruptcy on the part of the vendor or possession of essential files in the case of fee conflict. Your agreement should allow for no more than disruption of their service, but NOT retention of your data.
I'm guessing that with the size of the UUA, it would be the UUA standardizing on some external standard rather than the other way around.
-Curtis L. Russell, Treasurer
Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Lawrence
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 23:19:13 -0000
Subject: ChurchCRM (Church Management Software, Security and Utilities)
I would resist this; I am glad to report numbers, but do not want anyone else tracking.
allow someone (for example, the UUA) to track trends in attendance and membership
What I have been recommending for my society (which has been discussing a change for a year or more) is elvanto, which was recommended on this site before. I have not been able to find info about importing data, but they do not charge for financial transactions; the only fees for those are PayPal or Stripe transaction fees. (That is not at all my area of expertise.) What I like best about them is that they offer all features at all levels of service; cost is based strictly on the number of people in your CFS*. They are located in Australia, but have servers here (I probably wish they didn?t; other countries have better privacy laws <g>). Of course, it is one of those cloud services that make me nervous!
Sally Gellert
CUC, Paramus, N.J.
*congregation/fellowship/society
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 01:29:32 -0000
"Put all your eggs in one basket, and WATCH THAT BASKET." ;-)
Not all of us are security experts, but companies like Icon and others
hire experts for just that task.
And on our Wordpress implementation, right on the control panel, is an
easy link to update WP and the plugins, themes, and extensions we've
loaded.
If I had simply passed our old Churchinfo server off to a successor,
chances are very good it would have stopped being updated then and there.
Best regards,
-- Cal Frye, Building and Grounds, Postmaster,
Oberlin (Ohio) UU Fellowship, www.ouuf.org, ~55 members
Treasurer, [former] Ohio Meadville District
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini.
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Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 21:16:11 -0000
Hello All,
I've newly joined the group. We are starting to think if selecting and
implementing a ChMS makes sense for us. We are a small congregation. A
solution needs to save time, be user friendly (no IT staff!) and be very cost
effective. I'm guessing these are common needs!
Have just quickly looked at the Capterra site and another How To Choose
site, and just becoming aware of some of the providers out there that offer
web/cloud-based services, such as Breeze and ChurchTrac.
Is this group a resource for recommendations on this subject?
Is this group aware of solutions that small UU congregations tend to favor
and rate highly?
Are some of you in the process of implementing a new solution, or recently
have done so, in a small UU congregation and willing to connect for a
conversation about your experience and decisions?
Thank you for giving me some starting pointers.
Regards,
Ellen Z.
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Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 21:57:33 -0000
Ellen,
Check the archives; this is discussed from time to time.
You should be able to find them from here:
Certainly if there are specific questions folks here will chime in!
Sally Gellert
CUC, Paramus, N.J.
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Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 17:27:36 -0000
MemInfo was developed specifically for and used by
Unitarian Universalist congregations across the country.
Track your membership, send pledge statements, track member activities,
produce photo directories, manage your annual service auction, and
much much more.
MemInfo is available in two versions: PC-based, and Internet-based.
The two versions are pretty much the same and they are priced the same.
You can try out the PC-based system for free through June 2017.
Thereafter, congregations with less than 100 families may continue to
use the PC-based MemInfo at no cost.
For more information about MemInfo: www.MemInfo.com.
There?s probably not a system that costs less than MemInfo.
Art Lieberman