1 00:00:26,559 --> 00:00:30,679 Well, we want to welcome everyone to the Congregational Leaders Conversation. 2 00:00:30,679 --> 00:00:33,719 This monthly program offers an opportunity to hear from 3 00:00:33,759 --> 00:00:37,759 experienced expert guest speakers on a topic of injuries to congregational 4 00:00:37,759 --> 00:00:42,320 leaders, and to be in conversation with them and one another about 5 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,479 what we're noticing in our congregations. 6 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,000 You can expect a variety of opinions, questions, 7 00:00:48,039 --> 00:00:50,719 concerns, and ideas to be shared each month. 8 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:55,880 We do record these meetings and post them on the website for those who want to access them later. 9 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,759 This video does not include the time we spend in the breakout rooms. 10 00:00:59,799 --> 00:01:04,120 My name, for those of you, I have not had a chance to meet, is QuianaDenae. 11 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,120 It's always both parts 12 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,359 My pronouns are "she and her." 13 00:01:08,359 --> 00:01:11,359 I am physically in Ann Arbor, Michigan, which is also the land 14 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:15,000 of the Potawatomi people that was worked with black and brown labor. 15 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,799 I am an African American woman, a black woman with rainbow, 16 00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:21,680 multicolored glasses with gold buttons. 17 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,920 I have on a yellow and brown headband and black locks 18 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,599 that are laying on my black jacket and I have a fun background 19 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,400 Tonight's 20 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,000 gathering is an opportunity for us to practice some of the key leadership 21 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,560 skills that are essential for these times. 22 00:01:37,599 --> 00:01:40,640 We ask that you lean into those skills and your interactions 23 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,239 with others this evening and suggest you follow the group 24 00:01:44,239 --> 00:01:48,120 norms, which you will also be able to find in the chat 25 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,599 They include things 26 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,400 like taking care of yourself, extending grace, as others do the same, 27 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,400 sharing by choice, and that it's okay to pass or pause. 28 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:02,560 Here is a bit more information that 29 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,760 will let you know what to expect in our time together 30 00:02:05,439 --> 00:02:09,400 I do want to introduce our tech host, which who is Ritoo, 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,680 my colleague Lauren Wyeth, is one of our co-hosts, and the 32 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,479 three of us will be here with you every month. 33 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,680 This month's guest facilitator is our colleague from 34 00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:23,199 the UUA Transitions Office, Christine Purcell, 35 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:25,639 who will introduce herself later in the program. 36 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,599 Our guest this evening is Reverend Dr. Deborah Pope-Lance. 37 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,000 Deborah will be talking to us about healing congregations 38 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,879 after misconduct, with the focus on empowering congregational 39 00:02:37,879 --> 00:02:42,560 leaders to address both the harm and the factors that allow harm patterns to repeat. 40 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,039 Hello friends, my name is Lauren Wyeth. 41 00:02:49,039 --> 00:02:52,080 I am on your staff your regional staff for the 42 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:57,280 MidAmerica region of the Congregational Life team at your UAA. 43 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,319 My colleague is QuianaDenae Perkins. 44 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:03,199 My pronouns are she or they, and I am 45 00:03:03,199 --> 00:03:07,039 a white person with curly blondish brown hair and tortoise shell glasses. 46 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:10,400 I'm wearing a jean jacket, and I'm in a 47 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,319 room that has a chalice behind me and kind of a pinkish wall behind me 48 00:03:15,879 --> 00:03:19,280 And I'm coming to you from Minneapolis, Minnesota. 49 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,759 And I wanted to give 50 00:03:22,759 --> 00:03:27,120 you a sense of our evening's agenda before we get right into it. 51 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:31,840 We are going to start with some grounding and some checkout time, 52 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:37,159 in breakout rooms and then we're going to hear from our speaker. 53 00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:40,280 There'll be a chance after we have that time 54 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,000 hearing from Deborah to go back into the same breakout rooms and 55 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,479 have a little discussion about what sparked for us, about what we heard from her. 56 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,240 And then we'll return to the main room for us sometime for a Q&A. 57 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,759 We'll close our time together at 9 Eastern and 6 Pacific. 58 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,080 If you're not wanting or not able to unmute 59 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,680 and participate in a breakout group this evening, 60 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,159 you can let us know that by putting a Q for quiet 61 00:04:07,159 --> 00:04:09,240 at the beginning of your Zoom name. 62 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,240 So if you change your Zoom name to put that Q at the beginning 63 00:04:13,639 --> 00:04:16,680 that will cue us to sort you 64 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,560 in into a quiet room for those two periods of time where 65 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,000 we'll be in breakout groups this evening. 66 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,160 I'm going to invite you now just to settle 67 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,040 in a little bit, whatever that might look like for you. 68 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,199 You might want to just take a breath or 69 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,079 you might want to move your body to get a little bit more comfortable in your seat. 70 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,639 Do whatever you need to to do to be a little bit more comfortable just now. 71 00:04:43,639 --> 00:04:47,120 And I'm going to light a chalice in just a moment with 72 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,759 these chalice lighting words by Archbishop 73 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,639 Rowan Williams, who says, Truth makes love possible 74 00:04:56,199 --> 00:05:00,040 Love makes truth bearable. 75 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,759 This is my favorite summary of the alchemy of human relationships. 76 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:17,759 So I quote it often. 77 00:05:17,759 --> 00:05:21,360 And it seems a particularly fitting opening for this evening's program 78 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,120 Truth makes love possible, love makes truth bearable. 79 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,240 Without acknowledging the truth with regards 80 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,480 to the behavior of an individual or the history of 81 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,879 an institution, we cannot claim to truly 82 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,000 love them, for our love is is based on falsehood or fantasy. 83 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,319 But when we place our faith in love's 84 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,879 power to guide us through suffering and harm toward healing, 85 00:05:46,879 --> 00:05:50,279 we deepen our capacity to endure difficult truths. 86 00:05:50,319 --> 00:05:53,199 Truth makes love possible. 87 00:05:53,199 --> 00:05:55,240 Love makes truth bearable. 88 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,560 When we make space for both, the alchemy is activated. 89 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,560 This powerful combination builds 90 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:08,720 trust, breeds compassion, and emboldens us to lead with integrity. 91 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:12,680 May this be the transformative work we do. 92 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,759 Hi, folks, I am your facilitator this evening. 93 00:06:20,759 --> 00:06:22,759 I'm Christine Purcell. 94 00:06:22,759 --> 00:06:25,360 I use her pronouns, for those who benefit 95 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,959 from a visual description, I have kind of unruly, reddish hair, 96 00:06:28,959 --> 00:06:34,040 white woman, middle aged, large kind of tortoiseshell glasses, and I have bookcases 97 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,560 and instruments behind me. 98 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,600 I'm the congregational transitions director for 99 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,839 the UUA, what that means, is I work mostly 100 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:47,519 with congregational leaders and search teams on their ministerial search processes. 101 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,399 I am calling in this evening from Central Connecticut, 102 00:06:51,399 --> 00:06:54,560 and I'm delighted to be here, especially delighted to see some of the folks 103 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,879 I'm already working with on their searches. 104 00:06:56,879 --> 00:07:00,000 Before I introduce our speaker, I wanted to request 105 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,319 that you please stay muted for the presentation. 106 00:07:02,319 --> 00:07:05,319 You are welcome, of course, to put any questions you 107 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:09,160 might have for the speaker in the chat box, for the Q&A session later, 108 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,560 I will keep track of those questions in the chat. 109 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:15,040 Our speaker tonight is a minister 110 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,439 and a therapist who spent years in parish, 111 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,240 interim, and counseling ministries, and then began 112 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,360 a community ministry that changed Unitarian Universalism for the better. 113 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:31,360 Over the last 30 years, she has trained most of the parish clergy in our association 114 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,680 on the ethics of ministry and about half 115 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,399 of our active clergy on the challenges, and 116 00:07:38,399 --> 00:07:41,519 maybe even opportunities, of serving with a congregation that 117 00:07:41,519 --> 00:07:44,079 has experienced clergy misconduct. 118 00:07:44,079 --> 00:07:49,120 She's also trained most of our congregational life field staff at the UUA 119 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,920 including myself, on supporting congregations 120 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,000 after clergy misconduct. 121 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,040 In my 14 years of service to the UUA 122 00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:02,399 and in many years of lay leadership, in congregations 123 00:08:02,399 --> 00:08:06,000 and clusters before my UUA career began, 124 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:11,680 few people have taught me more than our guest speaker about how congregational systems function 125 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,399 especially about trust, harm, and repair. 126 00:08:15,399 --> 00:08:18,279 Her wisdom guides my work on a daily basis. 127 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:20,279 No exaggeration. 128 00:08:20,279 --> 00:08:23,800 So I'm so very pleased that she's here to share some of it with you tonight. 129 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,399 I'm delighted to present our guest speaker, the Reverend Dr. Deborah Pope-Lance. 130 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,879 Thank you, Christine. 131 00:08:30,879 --> 00:08:32,879 That was very generous. 132 00:08:32,879 --> 00:08:35,840 I am Deborah Pope-Lance. 133 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:40,000 I have short, mostly dark hair. 134 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,960 I am white, I'm wearing a colorful autumn 135 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,879 colored scarf. 136 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,679 and I'm talking to you in front of a bookshelf, 137 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,120 and from just west of Boston tonight, where I live. 138 00:08:59,399 --> 00:09:02,399 I've been asked to 139 00:09:02,399 --> 00:09:07,559 talk to you a bit about what I've learned from my consulting work. 140 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,879 That is my coaching with clergy who were serving congregations 141 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,960 in the aftermath of misconduct by a predecessor 142 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,039 minister, about what I have learned that might interest you and 143 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:24,399 might guide you in serving as leaders in your congregation, 144 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:27,519 in congregations where there may or may not have been 145 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,519 ministerial misconduct in the past. 146 00:09:30,519 --> 00:09:33,559 Part of my work 147 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,720 has been helping folks, both leaders and clergy 148 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:42,440 understand what is ministerial misconduct. 149 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,600 I want to say that keeping it obfuscated 150 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,840 has been a very effective method of not holding people accountable 151 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,320 So it's not just like, oh, isn't this interesting? 152 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,320 This is misconduct. 153 00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:00,320 You know, you need to know what it is in order to hold it accountable 154 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,360 or to heal from it. 155 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,480 So just a little bit on ministerial misconduct. 156 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,879 It's a violation of the role of minister. 157 00:10:10,919 --> 00:10:13,960 It's using one's role as minister for 158 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,200 purposes other than for that for which it was intended 159 00:10:17,799 --> 00:10:21,320 It's abusing one's role in order to further one's 160 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,840 own desires, or indulge one's own self interest. 161 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,120 Often this involves abusing vulnerable 162 00:10:29,159 --> 00:10:32,919 others, sexually, emotionally, financially. 163 00:10:33,399 --> 00:10:36,399 It's violating the boundaries of 164 00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:40,360 one's role as minister and as a consequent of that 165 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,240 violation violating others. 166 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,360 This conduct violates the ethical standards of professional ministry. 167 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,399 These ethical standards are not arbitrary. 168 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,559 They're not like etiquette, you 169 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:00,039 know, who to introduce first or how to write a thank you note 170 00:11:00,759 --> 00:11:04,399 These are standards of competence, 171 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,799 how to conduct oneself in competently 172 00:11:08,799 --> 00:11:12,519 in ministry so as to not harm vulnerable others 173 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,360 The UUMA has 174 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,200 compiled these ethical standards as most religious 175 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,440 organizations have and you can ask for a copy by 176 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,600 emailing the UUMA in 177 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,039 fact, info at UUMA.org. We'll probably do it. 178 00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:36,320 These ethical standards 179 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,679 don't vary from congregation to congregation. 180 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,679 They're not different in Marin County, California than they are in Cambridge Mass. 181 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,320 Some people have tried to get 182 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:51,240 out of being held accountable by suggesting that that was the case. 183 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,600 They were the same in 1960 as they are now 184 00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:59,519 They were the same in 1990 as they are now. 185 00:11:59,519 --> 00:12:02,519 It was always unethical for 186 00:12:02,519 --> 00:12:05,679 a minister to pursue a sexual relationship with 187 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,519 a congregate who comes to that minister for counseling. 188 00:12:09,519 --> 00:12:13,159 In fact, offering sex instead of pastoral counseling 189 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,919 is substandard delivery of service. 190 00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:19,960 Now, for you who are in professions where 191 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,799 there's a standard of competence and you have to prove that you rise above it, 192 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,279 Ministerial misconduct 193 00:12:29,279 --> 00:12:32,519 is substandard delivery of service. 194 00:12:32,519 --> 00:12:34,519 It's actually incompetent 195 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,080 ministry. 196 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,639 The only thing that's different is 197 00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:41,960 now they write them down. 198 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,000 Who knew? 199 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,240 Who knew that you needed to write down that 200 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,720 ministers shouldn't have sex with congregants? 201 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:53,399 Who knew that 202 00:12:53,399 --> 00:12:56,559 you had to tell you, train ministers that they shouldn't have 203 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,720 sex with congregants or borrow money from 204 00:12:59,759 --> 00:13:05,039 congregants and not return it, or yell and belittle their staff or 205 00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:08,519 preach a colleague sermon, as 206 00:13:08,519 --> 00:13:11,679 if it were their own, or divulge 207 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,240 confidences, or lie about themselves, about their education, 208 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,399 their activities, or anything that might misrepresent them 209 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,080 and in doing so, advantage 210 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,080 them and deceive others. 211 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,320 All these examples of unethical conduct 212 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,399 and boundary violating behavior, 213 00:13:32,919 --> 00:13:36,080 have always been not okay, unethical, 214 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,840 below the standard of professional competence. 215 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,600 The only other 216 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:48,000 thing that's different is accountability, 217 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,399 and our accountability is different now 218 00:13:51,399 --> 00:13:54,879 that it was in 1990 or 1960, and 219 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:57,399 that is a huge accomplishment 220 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,840 for the UUA and for the UUMA 221 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,679 as the colleagues worked 222 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,559 to support each other in ethical ministry, 223 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,480 and the UUA through the Ministerial Fellowship Committee seeks to foster 224 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:17,320 ethical conduct and 225 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,960 to remove incompetent unethical conduct so 226 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,440 it can't continue to harm others. 227 00:14:29,039 --> 00:14:32,519 But, there's also something more, and that is that we have 228 00:14:32,519 --> 00:14:36,279 and this is the focus of my work 229 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,320 with clergy and congregations, is we have learned 230 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,799 that the impact of clergy misconduct 231 00:14:44,799 --> 00:14:47,919 can be persistent and pervasive. 232 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,840 It's not just a scandal. 233 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,679 We know what the harm is, and a scandal. 234 00:14:53,679 --> 00:14:56,799 People are embarrassed, and one third of the membership leaves. 235 00:14:56,799 --> 00:14:58,799 You can count on it. 236 00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:02,480 We know that ministerial misconduct generates 237 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,399 serious level five, 238 00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:10,279 you know, conflict that divides congregations, 239 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,200 and usually about half people leave. 240 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,200 What are they fighting about? 241 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,120 Well, they're fighting about whether it is misconduct or not, 242 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,919 and whether it should have consequences or not. 243 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,279 We know these things all happen, 244 00:15:24,279 --> 00:15:28,399 but there's something more, something that persists and 245 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,759 pervades the whole congregation. 246 00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:34,279 So that's where my focus has been. 247 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,639 And how did we discover this? 248 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:41,440 Well, there were group of ministers, seasoned ministers, 249 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:47,360 competent ministers, who were having a terrible time in their congregations, and they couldn't figure out why. 250 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,799 They were being treated very badly, they weren't trusted. 251 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:55,960 A lot of the organization that they tried 252 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,320 to support just fell apart, and there 253 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,440 were a lot of people behaving badly, obviously often in their direction. 254 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,320 So they got together and talked, and as they talked, they realized that every one of them 255 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,120 every one of them was serving a congregation that had ministerial 256 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,399 misconduct in its history. 257 00:16:15,399 --> 00:16:18,399 Every last one. 258 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:20,399 There seemed to be something 259 00:16:21,039 --> 00:16:24,759 different about those congregations. 260 00:16:27,159 --> 00:16:30,799 So in search of what this is, 261 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,159 I will tell you that I always see two things when 262 00:16:35,159 --> 00:16:39,120 I'm working with a minster in a congregation or 263 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,519 with leadership in a congregation where misconduct has happened in the past 264 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,039 I see a minister who is 265 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,759 willing to engage in the conduct. 266 00:16:48,759 --> 00:16:51,919 That is, they chose to behave that way. 267 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,960 They chose to sexualize the relationship. 268 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,960 They chose to write themselves a check 269 00:16:58,799 --> 00:17:02,639 and you know, that nobody's going to find out about. 270 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:07,319 They chose to yell and belittle their staff. 271 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,599 It is always, by the way, the minister's responsibility 272 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,480 to conduct themselves competently and ethically. 273 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,240 And so there's always a minister in the past 274 00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:19,319 who chose not to. 275 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,119 There's interesting 276 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,519 common behaviors among misconducting ministers. 277 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:32,519 They're often controlling. 278 00:17:32,519 --> 00:17:34,720 They often make decisions unilaterally 279 00:17:35,519 --> 00:17:38,920 sometimes outside the boundaries of their role. 280 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:40,920 They violate 281 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:44,920 behavior norms. 282 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,319 They in small ways and large, they can be rude, 283 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,480 or they can order people around. 284 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,680 What am I describing? 285 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,559 I am describing the common thread in all kind kinds 286 00:17:57,599 --> 00:18:01,920 of ministerial misconduct conductors, 287 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,359 and that is narcissism. 288 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,599 It is their relational stance towards the people they work with. 289 00:18:09,519 --> 00:18:12,559 It's an attitude that 290 00:18:12,599 --> 00:18:16,240 says, this relationship is to benefit me. 291 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,480 It's norm busting, 292 00:18:20,559 --> 00:18:23,599 They know better than anybody else, what people need 293 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,079 to do and how they need to do it. 294 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:28,079 They're gonna tell you. 295 00:18:28,079 --> 00:18:31,200 Now, they are this narcissism 296 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,279 doesn't show up in every relationship 297 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,079 because there are some people who would call them on it. 298 00:18:38,079 --> 00:18:43,240 But it shows up in relationship with vulnerable people. 299 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,400 The second thing I always see is a 300 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,000 congregation that appears to have lacked the capacity 301 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,920 to see misconduct when it was happening, or to 302 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,160 know what it is, to stop it, to hold the minister accountable. 303 00:19:01,079 --> 00:19:04,319 It seems as if they lacked the what Peter Steinke 304 00:19:04,319 --> 00:19:07,720 called the immune cells, the leaders who 305 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,079 are functioning in a way to 306 00:19:12,039 --> 00:19:16,000 protect the congregation from the 307 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,240 bad things that can happen of all sorts, including ministerial misconduct. 308 00:19:20,279 --> 00:19:22,799 Now, it's never the congregation's fault 309 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:27,000 that misconduct happens, and 310 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,160 I want to be clear, but it's strange that these leaders, 311 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,680 who are otherwise smart, capable people 312 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:37,759 they miss it. 313 00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:39,240 They think it's something else. 314 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,880 They somehow think it's okay. 315 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,440 As a group, we're not talking about individuals, but 316 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,640 they wouldn't miss it at work. 317 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,640 They wouldn't miss it, one hopes in their homes, but 318 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,119 at church, at a church with misconduct 319 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:58,559 history, their capacity to manage it in their best interests, 320 00:19:58,559 --> 00:20:01,599 is somehow disabled or diminished. 321 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:04,240 So what does it look like? 322 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,240 Well, 323 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,640 It looks like the congregation's not thriving, 324 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,599 like there are chronic difficulties, the same old, same old, 325 00:20:16,599 --> 00:20:20,720 and over and over again, and it's not getting any different. 326 00:20:20,759 --> 00:20:23,200 People over function and under function 327 00:20:23,759 --> 00:20:25,759 Things don't work. 328 00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:27,119 There's no follow through. 329 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:28,880 In any case, there's a lot of 330 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,279 unclear expectations about ministers and roles that aren't defined. 331 00:20:36,279 --> 00:20:39,799 In other words, it's a mess, right? 332 00:20:39,839 --> 00:20:42,000 It's a mess of disorganization. 333 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,599 So looking 334 00:20:46,599 --> 00:20:50,480 at this narcissistic stance that's common among miscononducting 335 00:20:50,519 --> 00:20:56,200 ministers, over time, that stance alters the emotions 336 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,359 emotional and relational norms of a congregation. 337 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,960 The common thread that shows up everywhere 338 00:21:05,519 --> 00:21:09,000 in veriying intensity. 339 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,160 I know better than you, I'll tell you what you need to know, 340 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,319 and what you should do, and if you don't want to do it that way, well, 341 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,400 there's the door, controlling, unilateral. 342 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,279 The role of the minister is what I say it is. 343 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,839 Over time, a constant diet 344 00:21:24,839 --> 00:21:28,480 of this relational stance alters the emotional 345 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,519 and relational norms in the system of a congregation. 346 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,640 So it's an autocratic leadership style that is modeled by the 347 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,319 minister, becomes the style that everyone 348 00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:42,519 uses, 'cause that's how you get stuff done. 349 00:21:43,599 --> 00:21:46,720 So what I want to say, I've noticed is 350 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,119 that misconduct is a process as 351 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,359 well as conduct. 352 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,400 It's a progressive deterioration, a 353 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:01,119 progressive breakdown in relationships and relational patterns and leadership norms 354 00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:04,599 And it leads to a breakdown in the role of 355 00:22:04,599 --> 00:22:10,519 ministry and in ministerial relationships, and in the work of the congregations. 356 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:15,160 So there's this process of deteriorating 357 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:20,599 the purpose of the congregation as well as the ministry. 358 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,640 So what's it look like? 359 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,599 Well, you see a lot of distrust 360 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,480 not only of subsequent ministers, but of 361 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,240 all leaders and of congregants of each other. 362 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,680 You see secrecy as a strategy. 363 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,960 We won't talk about it, it'll go away, 364 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,519 no one will know, and we'll reclaim our good name as a congregation. 365 00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:45,279 We just won't tell anybody what happened 366 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,079 And people behave badly. 367 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:53,920 They ignore the bylaws, they threaten to withdraw their pledge if they don't get their way. 368 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,960 Bad behavior is tolerated 369 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,640 rather than confront people who' difficult. 370 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,400 There's a lot of disorder in role 371 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,720 confusion, responsibilities, anxiety 372 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,519 and impaired functioning. 373 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:13,680 They don't follow the bylaws. 374 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,240 Suddenly they're out in the middle of nowhere. 375 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,440 So, how do you heal from this? 376 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,480 I mean, one way is, yes, 377 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:27,240 you prevent it from ever happening again, 378 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,720 better education, better screening, better training, 379 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,759 better supervision, all of that. 380 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,160 But you'll also have to reverse 381 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,880 that progressive deterioration of 382 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,559 the norms and behaviors and purposes 383 00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:49,519 of a congregation and of a ministerial relationship. 384 00:23:49,519 --> 00:23:51,519 You have to intentionally 385 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,720 make efforts to be a healthy congregation. 386 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,960 And years ago, there used to be lots of workshops about healthy congregations. 387 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,000 I hope there still are. 388 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,680 But 389 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:05,759 what is a healthy congregation? 390 00:24:05,759 --> 00:24:08,440 Well, it's one that has healthy behaviors, 391 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,160 you know, that it's not bullying, it's not teasing, it's 392 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,559 not yelling, it's treating people well 393 00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:18,039 and kindly and respectfully. 394 00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:21,960 And one could even say that if you focus on 395 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,799 being intentional about how you 396 00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:30,759 operate as a congregation, that that is a huge step towards healing. 397 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:32,960 Because one of the things that narcissistic 398 00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:38,359 stance is it's not kind and generous and respectful. 399 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,000 So generally, 400 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,319 being clear about roles, clear about boundaries, 401 00:24:46,319 --> 00:24:49,720 reading your bylaws and your policies, and conducting 402 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,839 yourself in absolute accordance with them 403 00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:56,920 Being consistent, no exceptions. 404 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,079 Exceptions are often what lead the 405 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,000 door open for abuse and misconduct. 406 00:25:04,079 --> 00:25:07,680 You retrieve the integrity of the congregation 407 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,799 and its purpose in every single 408 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:14,440 act of leadership. 409 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,680 Of course, what I'm talking about isn't 410 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,200 exactly simple, if it takes 411 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,279 time, but in other words, it's repairing the breakdown in 412 00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:31,240 the ministerial relationship and in the congregation's 413 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,839 functioning in 414 00:25:34,839 --> 00:25:39,559 an intentional, clear, absolute way, healing and is not an accident. 415 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,240 I think I'm done there, Christine, and I'd love to hear you ask me some questions. 416 00:25:49,799 --> 00:25:51,799 I would love to do so. 417 00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:56,440 It's really fun to ask questions to someone when you weren't really sure what they were going to say in their presentation. 418 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:03,279 First of all, I don't even know if this is something you can estimate. 419 00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:05,279 I've never asked you this before. 420 00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:07,960 Could you estimate what percentage of our congregations 421 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,839 have experienced clergy misconduct in recent memory 422 00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:14,839 Or is that something you couldn't estimate? 423 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,480 Well, I mean, I'd probably make you define recent memory. 424 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,640 I go back 60 years knowing 425 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,640 about congregations and ministerial misconduct. 426 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,559 Let's say 60 years then. 60 years. 427 00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:31,079 I would say minimum 66% 428 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,480 Wow. 429 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,359 I did work in 430 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:41,160 Florida, and I actually took the time to sit down with a couple of colleagues 431 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,039 who' been around, and you know, Florida, 432 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:47,960 and the people who served in Florida over the last 60 years 433 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,799 And we went through every 434 00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:58,480 congregation of the ones that we could name, it was two thirds. 435 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,480 We knew. 436 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,880 We knew that two thirds of those congregations at all experienced some sort of misconduct. 437 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:07,319 I appreciate that. 438 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:10,359 Not for shock and awe at all, but just and certainly not to 439 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,119 normalize misconduct, but just so that if, you know, anyone watches 440 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:19,720 this or is participating in this call who's their congregation has had it, I'd hate for them to feel like it was 441 00:27:20,759 --> 00:27:22,759 if they were in a lonely place. 442 00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:27,079 And the misconduct was often only thought about sexually, right? 443 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,680 But I have a broad understanding. 444 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,680 It's that stance 445 00:27:32,279 --> 00:27:35,799 that, you know, disrespects, disregards, 446 00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:41,839 presumes to, you know, breathe all the air in the room, when 447 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:47,440 they have the opportunity to do so, you know, to get the congregation's purpose to be to serve them 448 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,559 and rather than to serve the purposes of a UU congregation. 449 00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:55,559 Absolutely. 450 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,000 Question, I'm going to set it up, I think, with some context, 451 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,359 and you kind of got to this towards the end, but I'm wondering if you could say a little more. 452 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,759 During an after misconduct, a congregation createdes 453 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,680 kind of protective mechanisms, which can become 454 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,160 maladaptive once the threat is no longer in the system 455 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,440 In working with congregations and ministers around endings 456 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,960 of ministries, I've seen that micromanagement and 457 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,640 distrust of a minister serving in an after pastor setting can end 458 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,359 the next ministry partnership and maybe the next one too. 459 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,319 Also, I'm hearing from congregations that the 460 00:28:35,319 --> 00:28:38,720 third most common reason why they are choosing 461 00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:42,160 the contract ministry search path over the settled ministry 462 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,000 search path is related to distrust 463 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,960 in their system, from a past clergy partner. 464 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,000 So my question, after all that, 465 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:56,119 how should congregational leaders in an after pastor 466 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,000 ministry situation balance the need to protect their 467 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,200 congregation with restoring the level of appropriate trust, 468 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,200 needed for effective ministry partnership. 469 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,039 I'm 470 00:29:13,079 --> 00:29:17,880 still back on how this is why congregations are seeking contract ministries. 471 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,279 And I thought you were going to say it's because you can get rid of them easier, right? 472 00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:23,279 Well? 473 00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:26,319 I think it's also the reason why women 474 00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:31,960 got a lot of pulpits because they 475 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,440 were thought to not be capable of misconduct. 476 00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:40,480 You know, Again, a very narrow notion about misconduct 477 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,880 and sadly, of course, they are able 478 00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:47,519 to engage in misconduct. 479 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,279 They do develop some coping strategies. 480 00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:56,920 One of them, I mentioned, which is secrecy. 481 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,119 You know, if we just pay this guy a year's severance, 482 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:05,119 and have a 483 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,240 gag clause in the termination agreement and 484 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,799 even go so far as to say he can't come any, he, they, she, 485 00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:18,200 they can't come within 200 miles of the congregation ever 486 00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:21,599 You know, how do you enforce that? 487 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,480 That, and 488 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,319 just move them on and never talk about it, you know, it's a secret. 489 00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:34,319 Everybody doesn't really know. 490 00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:35,880 That's a coping strategy. 491 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,000 And then they begin to use that same same coping strategy on other things 492 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:43,680 Like, we'll just go find a minister we like and 493 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:49,000 tell them this is going to be the we'll do it in the secret. 494 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,240 We won't use the UUA process with that boundary violating, right? 495 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,759 Boundary violating is also one of the coping strategies. 496 00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:00,799 We'll just figure out how to do this. 497 00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:03,000 I don't care what the bylaws say, right? 498 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,720 So you can see that those 499 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,200 coping strategies weren't just made in crisis, but 500 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,839 they also mimic and replicate 501 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,039 the narcissistic stance. 502 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,680 Could you say 503 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,839 a bit about the approach of a Minister 504 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,519 who is ready to be in partnership with a congregation 505 00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:31,160 that has had clergy conduct, like what sort 506 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,480 of tasks and approach to the ministry you would suggest to them 507 00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:38,880 What that minister approach should be? 508 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,880 Yep. 509 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,000 I think their first task 510 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,359 of a minister following misconduct is to rebuild 511 00:31:46,359 --> 00:31:49,400 trust, and that's a kind of on the ground kind of thing. 512 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,480 It means you return your phone calls and you 513 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,759 show up where you say you're going to show up, and 514 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,400 you do what you say you're going to do. 515 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,880 I mean, it's that you granular, because 516 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,319 the distrust is that granular. 517 00:32:03,359 --> 00:32:07,200 You can't go in and say, I know I'm trustworthy. 518 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,200 You should all trust me. 519 00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:15,079 You have to rebuild it. 520 00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:17,559 And one of the things I, 521 00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:23,200 I try to encourage clergy to realize that could take that could take a couple of years. 522 00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:27,960 It could take five years, just 523 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,359 to have built up enough trust 524 00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:35,240 that you can do your job, because unearned trust 525 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:37,359 is how clergy do their job. 526 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,000 You walk into a room of grieving people who've never met 527 00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:43,799 you before, but you're the church's minister. 528 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:45,799 So they trust you 529 00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:52,599 to serve them well, and they've never met you before. 530 00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:54,599 They don't know anything about you. 531 00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:56,559 But repair that 532 00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:00,640 takes a lot of time and a lot of effort. 533 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,799 When you do something when something happens 534 00:33:03,839 --> 00:33:09,000 that was your mistake, ministers get all tight about this one. 535 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,720 You have to apologize profusely, more than you imagine. 536 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,720 You ever have to apologize 537 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,000 And you just ministers want the mistake to disappear, too. 538 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,279 But it's that mistake. 539 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,880 It's the singular proof that you're just like the bozo who used to be our minister, right? 540 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,880 You can't be trusted. 541 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,359 So it's 542 00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:36,160 rigorous process of rebuilding. 543 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,680 And the other thing they need to do, and I'm glad you 544 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,359 asked me this, is empower the leadership to do their job. 545 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,079 Because they 546 00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:51,359 seem one of the things that happens with misconduct is 547 00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:54,119 they seem to have lost their capacity 548 00:33:55,119 --> 00:33:57,119 to do their job. 549 00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:02,799 and, you know, do fill their role, 550 00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:06,279 complete their fiduciary duty, follow the by laws, make sure 551 00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:09,159 that the building is locked at night. 552 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,320 You know, the base job of 553 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,159 leading a congregation, 554 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,079 a group of people towards a certain purpose. 555 00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:23,880 And the clergy's job is to empower the leadership to do that. 556 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,360 Not to come in and say, "Oh, I know how to run a canvas. 557 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,719 Look, I I'll just put it all together and I'll bring in our next board meeting, and you'll see." 558 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,719 And if you follow what I'm suggesting 559 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,360 you know, you'll raise the money. 560 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,920 It'll happen. 561 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,360 Now, can you see how the that is 562 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,599 a minister telling the congregation? 563 00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:46,840 I know better than you do, and I'm going to find the information and 564 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,519 provide it to you, and you'll be fine. 565 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,960 That's, repeating the relational stance 566 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,800 of the misconducting minister, even though it was meant to be helpful, right? 567 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,800 But in terms of emotion and 568 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,920 relationship, it's the stance of a misconducting minister. 569 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,960 And so 570 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,599 empowering the leadership looks like, well, so, how have you run your canvas before?" 571 00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:11,679 You know, you didn't. 572 00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:13,679 You know, it's been a while. 573 00:35:13,679 --> 00:35:15,480 You've been a congregation for how long? 574 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,360 35 years? 575 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:18,360 So that means you had 35 canvases. 576 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,360 What have you used? 577 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:21,719 What's worked well for you? 578 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:22,920 What hasn't? 579 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,480 You know, 580 00:35:26,519 --> 00:35:28,840 there are a hundred ways to run a canvas. 581 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,400 Let's you should pick one that'll work for you. 582 00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:34,960 That's how you empower the leadership. 583 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,360 Yeah, I've definitely seen that.. equipping, 584 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,559 and identifying and equipping mature and capable lay 585 00:35:41,559 --> 00:35:44,440 leaders as being part of the off ramp from this. 586 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,519 And a part of what misconduct does is it disempowers the leaders. 587 00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:50,519 Absolutely. 588 00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:51,760 Don't you worry, I know how to run a canvas 589 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,239 I'll bring it next. 590 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:55,280 I mean, literally, or don't you worry. 591 00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:00,159 There's a congregation out there that was having trouble finding a treasurer. 592 00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:05,119 And so the minister used to be a CPA. 593 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,039 So it was suggested 594 00:36:09,039 --> 00:36:13,400 that maybe she could do the book and 595 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,960 act as treasurer and sign the checks. 596 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,760 This is a real story, everyone. 597 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,760 This really happened. 598 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:23,960 And it's hard hard to imagine. 599 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,000 How could this really happen? 600 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,679 But so they made her, they made her be the treasurer. 601 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,480 By the way, that's a boundary violation of her role 602 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,880 right there, because that's not the job they asked her to come do. 603 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,239 It's also a conflict of interest. 604 00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:48,599 And then when they, I mean, unfortunately, she had Later 605 00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:53,280 they found out she didn't mail in the pension contributions, and she didn't 606 00:36:54,639 --> 00:36:58,840 pay everybody's health insurance premium. 607 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,320 I mean, there were. How did they do that? 608 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,440 They didn't do their job. 609 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,519 and they got into trouble.. 610 00:37:09,519 --> 00:37:11,960 Indeed. 611 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,280 Oh, they literally opened the door. 612 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,559 They didn't cause the minister to abscond with the funds, right? 613 00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:22,920 That minister chose to do that, that minister was responsible 614 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,519 for being ethical, but they opportuned 615 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,840 their misconduct. 616 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,880 Systemic. 617 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,239 All right, I think we have to wrap this section 618 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,239 Welcome back, folks. 619 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,679 I always like to imagine when people don't fly 620 00:37:39,679 --> 00:37:43,400 back to a shared room immediately 621 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:48,440 when the notice comes up that you're having, especially rich discussions, I hope that was so. 622 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:53,239 I'd like to open up a time of question and answer for you all. 623 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,519 You're free to put questions in the chat or send them to me directly 624 00:37:57,079 --> 00:38:00,199 and we'll get to as many as we can 625 00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:05,760 we can do in the time we have left, which is about 15 minutes. 626 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,119 I got one by message a 627 00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:12,719 little bit ago and I'll start with that and then start reading through the chat. 628 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,800 Deborah will respond to them, and I will 629 00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:18,719 comb through your questions and look for some good ones. 630 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,880 The one I received earlier was, what can lay 631 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,000 leaders in congregations that have a history of misconduct do 632 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,599 to break the pattern and help the congregation heal? 633 00:38:36,119 --> 00:38:40,559 They can pay attention to how they're operating. 634 00:38:40,559 --> 00:38:42,840 Are they operating like a healthy congregation? 635 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,840 Are they following their bylaws? 636 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,760 Are they being respectful to one another when they talk at 637 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,880 annual meeting or with one another, or at any meeting? 638 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,039 Those are the kinds of things I talked about, but, yeah, you 639 00:38:57,079 --> 00:38:59,639 can have clear expectations about ministers 640 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,400 You can put in your letter of 641 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,920 agreement or contract that they're to conduct themselves in 642 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,719 Accordance with the UU Ministers Association ethical 643 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,679 Code, and their failure to do so will have consequence 644 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,960 State what the consequences will be. 645 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,320 You know, don't use the word "may 646 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,719 have consequences, shall have consequences." 647 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,760 Be clear about 648 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,360 expectations of 649 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,840 the minister, but also of people in positions and responsibilities. 650 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,199 One of the new kinds of messes 651 00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:41,519 churches get themselves into because they're not 652 00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:45,960 paying attention to jobs and responsibilities, 653 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,320 is they have a staff problem, 654 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,159 and staff are complaining about the minister, and 655 00:39:54,679 --> 00:39:58,280 they have a history of doing this, 656 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,239 and they take it to the board, and the board says, 657 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,239 Just get along, just get along, and then it doesn't 658 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,400 happen, and then come back to the board and, you know, do something. 659 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,440 They don't do anything. 660 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:12,800 So then they bump it up 661 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,039 to the region and then to the MFC at National. 662 00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:20,760 And it's all because the board was unwilling to 663 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,840 resolve the difficulty to address it, to 664 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,920 attend 665 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,039 to do their job, which is to make sure that there's a 666 00:40:35,519 --> 00:40:38,639 working environment that supports everybody, 667 00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:43,679 and that disruptive people aren't on your staff anyway. 668 00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:45,679 So 669 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,800 clear expectations about how people are 670 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,079 to function, is a 671 00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:55,920 good start, both minister and leaders. 672 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:58,960 Great, thank you. 673 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,000 Out of one of the groups came this question, if 674 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,400 I suspect someone of ministerial misconduct, where do I go? 675 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,400 What do I do? 676 00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:10,679 And I don't know if in this situation 677 00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:15,960 this is someone actively serving, or I suspect a history of misconduct. 678 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,960 Well, if you're a minister asking that 679 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,639 question, there is a whole procedure that's contained in the UUMA guidelines 680 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,400 and you can contact the UUMA and 681 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,840 talk with them about how to proceed. 682 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,639 If you don't want to follow those by yourself. 683 00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,679 If you are a layperson, you can go 684 00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:40,079 to your leadership and say, "I'm concerned about this 685 00:41:40,679 --> 00:41:43,960 And here's why" if 686 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,920 they don't for some reason take you seriously, you can go to regional staff. 687 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,440 True, thank you. 688 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,840 From the groups also, 689 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,519 this question, we had some discussion about restorative justice concerning harm from my ministers. 690 00:42:03,559 --> 00:42:06,559 How do we balance preventing further harm while 691 00:42:06,559 --> 00:42:09,679 holding an individual's capacity for growth and repair 692 00:42:10,159 --> 00:42:12,199 The theological question there. 693 00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:14,199 Love it. 694 00:42:14,199 --> 00:42:15,800 I think 695 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,519 the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. 696 00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:22,559 I think the harm done by ministerial 697 00:42:22,559 --> 00:42:26,039 misconduct is so egregious, so pervasive, so persistent 698 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,039 and so unethical that 699 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:34,320 it removes the privilege of ever 700 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,760 serving as a minister again. 701 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,960 I think that God will not, you, and 702 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,519 I think that the circle, the Almighty's embrace, 703 00:42:44,519 --> 00:42:46,679 the person that's still inside of that. 704 00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:49,480 I wish for them growth. 705 00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:51,519 How did this happen? 706 00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:54,159 How did they choose to hurt people 707 00:42:54,559 --> 00:42:56,559 like this? 708 00:42:56,559 --> 00:42:59,000 I wish them growth around 709 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,599 that, but there is never going to be a way they can become a minister again. 710 00:43:03,599 --> 00:43:06,599 The risk of harm to vulnerable others is too great. 711 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,159 So restorative 712 00:43:11,159 --> 00:43:14,559 justice for them as a person of faith, right? 713 00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:17,239 But not restored to the ministry? 714 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,239 No. 715 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,960 Important distinction. 716 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,320 Someone asks, what if a congregation 717 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,280 has experienced misconduct by another staff member other than the ministers? 718 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,320 Are there other considerations that a congregation should address in that? 719 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,360 that case? 720 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,360 Well, 721 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,400 certainly it begs the question of who is supervising the staff person. 722 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:46,119 And it begs the question of whether they were clear about 723 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,400 the ethical expectations of that staff person. 724 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:55,360 You know, the musicians, 725 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,920 the administrators, they all have associations 726 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,960 now, and they all have ethical standards 727 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,079 about how 728 00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:10,639 they treat other people during the course of their work, 729 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,480 and that should be in their contracts. 730 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,800 That should be in their letter of agreement. 731 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,760 So, again, clear expectations about how they are to conduct themselves. 732 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,039 would help. 733 00:44:26,039 --> 00:44:28,039 Mm hmm. 734 00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:31,239 Someone asked by direct message, 735 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,760 how can congregations heal if they don't consider that that 736 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,800 much harm was done? 737 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,960 Perhaps when, 738 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,360 um a minister had 739 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,880 sexually misconducted in a previous ministry, but came to their congregation, 740 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,000 did not sexually misconduct, but the staff and congregation did 741 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,039 experience like narcissism and bullying. 742 00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:57,880 Well, that just proves, my 743 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:03,199 wanting us to think about as relational, misconduct is relationally. 744 00:45:03,199 --> 00:45:05,199 It's a stance. 745 00:45:05,199 --> 00:45:07,559 So while this minister may not have 746 00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:10,960 the opportunity, or have not have given the opportunity to not choose to 747 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,239 engage in the sexual misconduct here 748 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,880 they were still engaging in 749 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,480 abuse of others through their role as minister. 750 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,480 So 751 00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:33,639 That, you know, it's still misconduct. 752 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,920 I have an expression, 753 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,519 this may be a moment of of levity for some, and that is 754 00:45:41,519 --> 00:45:45,719 I often quote from buckaroo banzai, 755 00:45:46,639 --> 00:45:49,639 which, for those of you who don't know it, it's 756 00:45:49,639 --> 00:45:53,000 a movie about intergalactic 757 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,719 travel, it's a spoof, of course. 758 00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,760 And the expression, " wherever you go, there you are" is 759 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,679 used by buckaroo to calm people's worries about intergalactic travel. 760 00:46:04,679 --> 00:46:07,599 And because he says, "Don't worry, wherever you go, there you are." 761 00:46:07,639 --> 00:46:12,800 And ministers who are willing to engage in abusive behavior in one setting 762 00:46:13,079 --> 00:46:16,599 may well be willing to in another, because 763 00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:18,840 they're the same person. 764 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,760 They may not, though, 765 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,519 if there are clear standards set up and 766 00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:35,159 supervision set up and expectations, 767 00:46:35,159 --> 00:46:40,679 you know, you'll see people in your office and the office has a little window in it, right? 768 00:46:40,679 --> 00:46:43,440 And someone else will be in the building. 769 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,360 There are all sorts of circumstances which 770 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,800 do not, shall we say, 771 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,679 do not deter people from engaging in misconduct. 772 00:46:54,559 --> 00:46:58,760 Thank you. 773 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,760 We had a question before the book. 774 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,840 Where do ministers go who have been dismissed because of ministerial misconduct? 775 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,440 Do they often move on to another congregation? 776 00:47:14,119 --> 00:47:16,679 That certainly has happened. 777 00:47:16,679 --> 00:47:19,800 They may be dismissed by the congregation 778 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:25,480 or have a negotiated parting that doesn't actually name the misconduct. 779 00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:27,519 You know, people were unhappy or 780 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,960 Then they go on to other congregations because no 781 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,159 one has named 782 00:47:35,159 --> 00:47:39,960 a misconduct or held the minister to account. 783 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,400 If the minister is held to account for the misconduct and is 784 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,760 removed from ministerial fellowship with the 785 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:54,039 UUA, they wouldn't go on to another congregation. 786 00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:56,079 However, congregations, 787 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,679 hire people like that, because 788 00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:05,400 they don't see the conduct as a problem. 789 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,880 I once had a congregation tell me that, 790 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,519 yeah, they knew all about that, about the previous conduct and 791 00:48:12,559 --> 00:48:15,199 everything, but that didn't deter them. 792 00:48:15,199 --> 00:48:17,400 I said, "Well, you know, if he does it again, 793 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,840 they'll take your building, you, because it's negligent", 794 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,119 higher negligent supervision, it's terrible. 795 00:48:25,159 --> 00:48:29,840 She said, "Well, no, we still think he has redeeming qualities. 796 00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:33,639 So, underplaying the 797 00:48:33,679 --> 00:48:38,639 harm. playing the harm has been a huge issue, which I think was a piece of 798 00:48:38,639 --> 00:48:42,280 the question you asked before, and not recognizing 799 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,360 that serious harm was done. 800 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,760 and in fact, you know, people didn't complain, 801 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:53,519 if they didn't file a written complaint with the UUA, the belief was there was no harm. 802 00:48:53,519 --> 00:48:57,039 So there was no foul, right? 803 00:48:57,079 --> 00:49:01,639 So no misconduct proceedings were taken without a first party letter 804 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,360 But recognition that 805 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,960 the harm is beyond the the a single person, 806 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,119 it's a whole community of people. 807 00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:14,119 The web of relations in a 808 00:49:14,119 --> 00:49:17,880 congregation has been injured and has deteriorated 809 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:23,880 And that is really raised. 810 00:49:26,639 --> 00:49:29,800 the impetus to really hold ministers 811 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,360 to account is the recognition of the harm. 812 00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:37,599 So no one asked this, but to follow on what you just said, 813 00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:41,599 Deborah, do you see do you think greater 814 00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:45,320 accountability now than you did earlier 815 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,519 in your career? 816 00:49:48,199 --> 00:49:51,960 Does it feel like it' Because it feels like it's moving in a better direction to me, but I' not. 817 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,880 I don't have your your breadth of experience. 818 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:56,920 Yeah, it is. 819 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,800 Not only are the procedures less 820 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,960 set up to, you know, discourage a misconduct proceeding. 821 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,960 You know, you had to have a first party victim, then 822 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,199 you had to really have two, because you had to show a pattern, right? 823 00:50:13,199 --> 00:50:16,360 And the MFC, 824 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,360 even if they read it on the front page of the B section of the New York Times 825 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,960 was disinclined, which is a reliable source, right? 826 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,960 Known source, they were not going to 827 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,360 act on their own, but now they do, on occasion. 828 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,440 When it's clear that 829 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,639 misconduct has occurred. 830 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:46,159 So it's definitely better, and it's substantially better in the last five years. 831 00:50:46,159 --> 00:50:48,159 Yeah. 832 00:50:48,159 --> 00:50:50,760 And I guess, you know, first it was all about 833 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,719 adjudicating whether or not the minister engaged in this conduct, and 834 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,719 then it was some recognition of arm to individual victims 835 00:50:59,159 --> 00:51:02,639 And now the MFC's decision 836 00:51:02,639 --> 00:51:06,760 making is informed by public safety, 837 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,800 you know, preventing harm 838 00:51:11,599 --> 00:51:15,559 to UU congregations and members. 839 00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:18,719 So it's really progressed in terms of how 840 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,079 it focuses its attention in deciding 841 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,719 misconduct cases. 842 00:51:28,079 --> 00:51:30,639 I think we'll have to end it there. 843 00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:32,840 I think those are the questions we have time for. 844 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,440 I will say that there were some resources shared in the chat. 845 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,880 I imagine given the organization of this group that you'll probably receive those resources. 846 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,599 And I want to say that no resource can replace relationship 847 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,280 And so I hope you will be in touch if 848 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,440 you find yourselves in a congregation where you're navigating 849 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,039 these waters because there is companionship 850 00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:57,199 and guidance for you. 851 00:51:57,199 --> 00:51:59,760 Should you be in that in that space? 852 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,559 Thank you for the time, Lauren and QuianaDenae. 853 00:52:02,599 --> 00:52:04,599 Yeah. 854 00:52:04,599 --> 00:52:09,199 Thank you, Christine, for facilitating so skillfully for us this evening. 855 00:52:09,199 --> 00:52:13,760 Thank you to those of you who are here for this tonight. 856 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,760 This is a heavy topic. 857 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,519 It's not an easy thing to sit with for an hour and a half. 858 00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:21,960 It's a very important thing as leaders in our congregations 859 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,039 to be aware of and to be 860 00:52:26,039 --> 00:52:30,159 intentional about how we are leading and how we're responding 861 00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:33,719 to the history in our congregation so that we can help 862 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,599 our congregations heal and break patterns where that's needed 863 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,920 I especially want to thank Reverend 864 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,280 Dr. Deborah Pope-Lance for being with 865 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,440 us this evening and being beyond that I want 866 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,840 to say for the career that you have made the 867 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,280 mission that you have had to insist that this conversation happen 868 00:52:55,559 --> 00:52:59,039 and happen and how happen because we 869 00:52:59,039 --> 00:53:04,000 still need to be having it, but we sure needed to have it more when you first started saying so. 870 00:53:04,039 --> 00:53:07,159 And I appreciate that it has been at some 871 00:53:07,159 --> 00:53:10,880 cost to you that you have been the person willing, one of the people 872 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,760 willing, one of the early people insistent 873 00:53:14,039 --> 00:53:18,400 that we should have these conversations and face what needs to be faced.