Welcome to the Mid America Region's Monthly Congregational



Leaders Conversation series.



I'm Lauren Wyeth, one



of your congregational life consultants



and MidAm America's Faith Development Specialist.



I'm a white person in my mid fifties



with curly shoulder length, dark blonde hair



and tortoise shell glasses, and I use she or they pronouns.



From October, 2024 through May, 2025,



MidAmerica regional staff will host a monthly congregational



leaders conversation on an emergent issue,



hopeful development or pressing concern.



In Unitarian Universalism, most will be recorded



and available for viewing



after the event as well, like the one you've tuned in for.



Here we are in a time when religious



communities are in flux.



The conversations we're having now will shape the future



of our faith in significant ways.



And so we set out to bring our whole hearts, our open minds,



and our yearning spirits to the task of meeting this moment



and imagining a way forward together.



If you are a lay or professional leader in a UU congregation



or community, be it in the role of clergy board member,



welcome team, volunteer administrator, youth group advisor,



small group facilitator, religious educator,



or another capacity.



We're glad you've found us.



These conversations are generally held on the second Tuesday



evening of each month, and are facilitated by myself



and the Reverend David Pyle.



Your experience



and perspectives are valuable to the whole body as we face



what is and cast a vision for what may be



equally valuable are your attention



and witness as others



share their experiences and perspectives.



Should you want to join us live for one



of our upcoming conversations, please register



through the MidAmerica webpage at



www.uua.org/midamerica/events.



There's no cost to attend.



Next up you'll learn a bit more about our speakers



and then we'll dive into the conversation.



Thanks for joining us, and welcome, come



Greetings.



I am the Reverend David Pyle, the regional lead



of the MidAmerica region



of the Unitarian Universalist Association.



I am a light skinned, white identified man in my early



fifties with light brown and gray hair, blue eyes.



I am currently clean shaven



and I'm wearing a red button down shirt



I office in Oak Grove, Kentucky is my honor



to introduce my friends



and colleagues, the Reverend Manishh, Misha Marzetti,



and Reverend Nancy McDonald's lab.



Reverend Manishh. Misha Marzetti has served



as the senior minister



of the first Unitarian Universalist Church



of Ann Arbor since August of 2018.



He has previously served as the senior minister



for congregations in Florida, New Jersey and Massachusetts.



He has served our faith tradition in many national



leadership roles, including as the president of the diverse



and revolutionary Unitarian Universalist Multicultural



Ministries or drum as a trustee on the UUA board



of trustees, and as co-chair of the board of trustees



for the Unitarian Universal Service Committee.



Prior to ministry, many served as a US diplomat



during the Clinton administration.



Reverend Nancy McDonald Lad is the Director



of Communications and Public Ministry at the Unitarian



Universalist Association.



Reverend Lad leads the development



and implementation of the UAS communication strategy,



ensuring that that strategy addresses uas intersectional



justice priorities, develops engagement



and relationships with significant constituencies,



and sets central messages for the association.



Nancy oversees a planning process



for communications priorities across the UUA



and manages the U a's communication staff.



Previously, she served as senior minister



at the River Road Unitarian Universalist congregation in



Bethesda, Maryland from 2012 to 2024, and



before that, as the Minister



for the Bull run Unitarian Universalist in Manassas,



Virginia, Reverend Nancy



and Reverend Manish co-edited a new volume published



by the UAS Publishing imprint Skinner House Books



titled Seeds of A New Way Nurturing authentic



and Diverse Religious Leadership,



which explores the unique demands



and possibilities such collaboration can bring



to leadership in the progressive faith tradition



of Unitarian Universalism.



I am honored to call them both colleagues and friends even



after I used to be both



of their district executive many moons ago.



Please join me in welcoming Reverend Nancy



and Reverend Manish to this inaugural MidAmerica



Congregational Leaders Meeting



Leaders. Okay,



I'm, I'm Manish Ri Mardi, uh,



senior administrator at Ann Arbor, Michigan.



My colleague Nancy McDonald lad joining us from



Massachusetts today.



Um, we are co-editors of Seeds of a New Way.



It's been out for a couple of months by Skinner house.



It's one of their latest publications.



Um, like the book emerged out of conversations that Nancy



and I were having with one another about things we had



encountered, uh, patterns we had encountered in our



ministerial journeys, in our careers



as congregational ministers.



Um, thus emerged the book, uh, a kind of a shorthand way



of thinking of the book is, uh, some questions actually.



Um, how do we integrate diverse leadership



into our, our paid congregational leadership,



but also volunteer lay, uh, congregational leadership.



Uh, I know perhaps others here know as well the the kind of



enthusiasm and excitement with which, um, non-majority,



majority US demographic folks can be greeted with as, uh,



they enter Unitarian Universalist congregations being



invited to do all the things, uh, up, you know, up to



and including board of trustees and everything else.



It's a beautiful enthusiasm and it's a beautiful energy.



But, you know, one of the questions is, uh,



how are we actually doing beyond the enthusiasm



with actually integrating



and receiving the leadership from folks who don't hold those



dominant US cultural identities?



So that's the context of the book that some of the questions



that we, uh, grapple with in, in there, it's intended to be,



uh, kind of a, a building upon, um, editor Mitra



Rana's, uh, book called Centering, which is now a decade



or decade plus old even.



Um, but that was one of the first EU publications to,



to tackle the conversation around



how are we including diversity in our leadership within



congregations, specifically from a paid, uh,



professional standpoint.



Our book incorporates both paid professionals in lay, okay,



so we wanted to open tonight.



Um, if you already have the book



or if you choose to get it in the future, you'll notice, uh,



or discover that the, the preface



and the first two chapters.



And the first two chapters are written by Nancy,



which is called, uh, beyond the Hustle.



And then my chapter, which is, uh, encounters with Dave.



Um, those, the preface



and those two chapters kind of frame the problem,



if you will, uh, what are we,



what are we kind of struggling with?



And then there's a couple of subsequent chapters



that additionally kind of provide additional takes on the



problem, experiences on the problem.



Then we go into like, how are people from a variety of



like life experiences and perspectives responding.



The end of the book, which is the epilogue, gives kind



of our summation, Nancy,



and my thoughts on here's what, here's what to try,



here's here's some general principles,



and it's not actually concrete stuff.



It's more like general principles to keep in mind



as we all collectively try and work on this.



That's the layout. So from the early section of the book,



we want my chapter, we want to offer you a reading



the context of what's happened in the chapter right



before this is I share my experience of being



courted very enthusiastically by, uh, a search committee,



a congregational search committee that was looking



for a new senior minister.



It was a charm offensive, let me tell you.



And, uh, then I pick up the story about what,



what happens once the charm offensive is done



and the, the letter of ministerial agreement is signed.



So that's where I'm picking up.



This is off pages 12 and 13 of seeds of a new way.



The months long romance



of the search period rapidly gave way



to a consistent pressure to conform, which lit,



which began literally



as the ink was still drying on the ministerial agreement.



It was as if a light switch had been flicked now



that we were contractually committed to one another.



The purpose of my existence, I was repeatedly advised, was



to learn how Dave, the elder, heterosexual, cisgender,



able-bodied white male, former senior minister did the job.



And my and and i, i was to do my best



to learn how to be like him.



The weeks and months that followed were astonishing.



I was advised what timetable Dave kept for appointments.



I was advised what ties shirts



and stoles I should and should not wear.



I was advised which programs I should offer, and, uh,



and invariably these were inevitably,



these were exactly the programs



and activities that Dave had offered



or participated in at the board table.



Board members would openly share that they had visited



with Dave at his home, talked with him on the phone,



or had dinner with him, and then go on to share the outcome



of their consultations with him related



to the affairs of our community.



On and on the reference point for everything was Dave.



When I deviated at times, even slightly from



how Dave might have done something,



I would be greeted at best with long silent stares



of disappointment and other times with open ridicule



and hostility with, for example, members



of the choir laughing at me



and passing condescending notes



to one another while I led Sunday worship



as if we were children in grade school.



These experiences were simultaneously



confusing and humiliating.



I was told that if I cared about the community,



that if I was community minded, I should try even harder



to do exactly what the community was telling me to do,



which was to be more like Dave and less like myself.



To undertake my job in a manner that allowed



for my genuine gifts to shine



through was quote unquote selfish.



They said that would be placing myself above



what the community was unequivocally indicating



its needs were selflessness could only be demonstrated



by my commitment to be more and more like Dave.



The community wanted the poster of diversity



that my family and I could provide.



The context here is my husband



and I are a gay, uh, multiracial family.



They wanted, uh, the diversity that my family



and I could provide, but they also wanted Dave,



the wied white male El elders wisdom perspective,



life experience and way of being not mine.



The pressure to conform became a way to control the thing



that this community never really wanted.



Authentic and integrated diversity, something deeper



and richer than the mere symbolic presence of it.



Thank you for the chance to share that with you.



Thank you, Manishh. Um, that piece is of course hard



to hear, but it also feels so deeply familiar on



so many levels for those of us who are working



in different leadership roles in congregational life.



Um, and I wanna just lift up at the top that Manishh



and I are both ordained ministers,



and the origin point



of these conversations was indeed Manish



and I, uh, very deeply, sometimes painfully talking about



what it meant for us



with our very divergent identities.



I'm a white woman, um, uh, ciz het white woman, uh,



with our identities



to minister authentically even in the presence



of these notional ideas of what ministry is



and could be that in so many ways drew us away



from our actual authentic selves.



So this originated with conversations about us as clergy,



but the leaders that we gathered together



for this text go far beyond just clergy leaders.



We have musicians, we have religious educators,



we have lay leaders,



we have people serving in roles within our Unitarian



Universalist association



because what we were exploring is not just how, uh,



diverse and authentic modes of



ministry can take root can be seeded among us,



but how diverse



and authentic modes of leadership can be seeded



and take root among us.



And so the essays are an incredibly rich



and incredibly varied selection of, um,



leaders across the association, reflecting on the barriers



to that deep



and authentic diverse leadership,



including the implicit bias that you just heard.



So, um, searingly articulated in Manisha's piece



and the creative ideas



and new frameworks that are emerging that can make room, uh,



for new forms of leadership



and the hope that is out there, the vision,



the tools that we really do have.



Um, I wanna say a couple



of things about the process that we use



to compile this book.



Uh, Manish and I are editors as such.



You know, we get our pictures on the back of the book,



and that feels very fancy



and official, like we are the ones



who have done all this work and brought this together.



It was in fact very important to us to decenter



that whole idea that anybody, anybody including us



is a licensed expert on how to lead



in these searing and devastating days.



Um, and so we put together this book



with an intentionally,



essentially co-edited collaborative process.



Um, we brought together all of the folks



who were even thinking about contributing to the book,



and for months we collaborated on ideas for



what it might, uh, look like.



And eventually we paired the authors off into dyads



to co-edit each other's pieces.



And I think one section of the preface kind of sums up some



of our approach to this.



Um, we wrote as such, um, at that outset,



we committed to each other that we may well be co-editors



of this project, but we would not at any juncture



be pretend to be the experts.



As such, we set the intention



that this text would not be a handy dandy how to guide



for designing decolonized,



anti-oppressive leadership models.



Nor would it lift either of us up as shiny examples of how



to lead in these challenging and gracefield times.



Seriously, you do not want to know the laundry list



of leadership mistakes either of we two editors have made



in the last month or two, much less the last two decades.



If you are looking for experts



or paragons of virtue, keep on shopping.



But if you're looking for a glimpse into very real human



forming edges of what it might take to make religious,



religious leadership more survivable



and more vibrant, the contributors



to this volume have given you just that.



And so we considered our editorial process a sort



of shared thought incubator.



One thing I love very deeply about it is



that it was a rare space



that on a fully co-equal collaborative playing field brought



together clergy religious leaders,



lay leaders, UUA staff.



There was no hierarchy in who got to pretend they knew



what they were talking about more than any of the others.



There is no hierarchy in whether Sophia Bean Kur,



who submitted an essay in this,



was on an equal playing field in our incubator process



with a lay leader in Arlington, Virginia, Niharika Chiro,



who wrote an amazing piece about what it means to



lead in religious education in her congregation, um,



and to bring her full, authentic self into it.



So I guess what I wanna lift up is that the only way



to plant seeds of new models of leadership



is in fact to lead differently.



And if the only modes of leadership that we are modeling



are modes based on the heroic effort



and unquestioned expertise of a very select



and small number of humans, we are not in fact



going to be able to recruit a next generation of leaders



on our boards, on our committees



for our denominational leadership structures.



And indeed, we are not going to get people ready to go



to seminary and be ministers if our understanding



that being a minister means you have to perform



the leadership style, the gender norms, the identity,



uh, markers of someone who you fundamentally are not.



If we want a future for Unitarian Universalist leadership,



we have to model different ways of doing that leadership



that are manageable



and responsive as we carry not only different identities,



but different personalities.



Um, not only could manishh not pretend to be Dave



on any number of identity markers,



manishh is in fact personality



and way of being as a leader in a room is not Dave, right?



Not only could I, and I came into ministry,



I was 25 years old in my first parish.



Not only could I not pretend to be



a like white dude with 40 years of experience,



you would not want me to,



because as I wrote in another published piece, um, and,



and forgive my cursing,



I will say a curse word here, congregants.



And people in the pews can smell the lingering miasma



of b******t from a mile away.



And you do not want leaders either in your boardroom



or in your pulpit performing an inauthentic



mode of leadership.



It is not an approachable or a sustainable thing,



and it does not feed the faith.



So this effort cracked that open, I believe,



and I know Manishh



and I only have a little bit more time with you to present.



So we wanted to talk a little bit more actually about



where we ended the book



after all of these amazing submissions.



And you should get the book



and read them, um, the epilogue that we wrote together about



where do we take, where do we take this work from here,



Manishh, you wanna take that away?



Yeah. So we're, we're taking,



you we're taking you from the beginning of the, well,



you've heard a little bit about the process of



how we pull people together.



It's an amazing list of contributors to this book.



If you haven't seen that, uh, contents of, uh, directory



or whatever yet, take a look at it,



it no doubt they'll recognize names.



Um, so gathering the people together, coming up



with this process, kind of framing, uh, what the, what some



of the issues are, hearing perspectives on it at the end in



the epilogue, we get to kind of some principles



to keep in mind, and that's what we want to,



we're jumping to that now.



Some big ideas to kind of keep in mind.



One of the things we, um, uh, kind of lifted up and,



and folks articulated as having encountered this idea that,



you know, in our congregational setting, so if,



if you are the person who's I, uh, embodying a different set



of identities, whatever those might be,



and you're trying to have conversation with your leadership



around, uh, you know, what are we gonna do



if folks have difficulty with, with, with, with that,



that I'm different in some way, shape or form.



The consistent, often consistent



response from search committees



or boards is, well, if that happens, if that happens,



but we don't think that's gonna happen



because we know our community



and we know what our community's values are.



But if it happened, I'm sure we could talk about it.



And, and that whole framing actually is problematic



because what it does is it says it sends the signal



to your staff member



or volunteer the person holding those,



those different identities.



That one it is, it is against the norm



to name that, including some encountering challenges



or a little bit of rough water might be normative.



In fact, that whole attitude of if,



but by the way, you know, we're not gonna,



we don't expect we're gonna run into anything like that.



It make it le it shifts the burden of the naming



onto the person who posed the question,



which is usually your person who's the first



gay or lesbian ministry.



You've got the first trans minister or lay leader,



or reli, uh, director of religious education



or whatever position it might be.



You've shifted the entire burden onto that person



to next months in or a year



or two in to have to say, wait, there are problems,



there are challenges, and, and if the whole context is,



but we're not expecting that to happen at all,



then the possible reaction is that, well,



the person who's bringing it up is the problem as to,



as opposed to we have a systemic problem that we need



to hold together and address together, right?



So that, that whole framing at the outset of if,



and by the way, we're not expecting,



we don't expect we'll have any problem, we need to do away



with the if conversation altogether.



And we need to understand there will always be,



there will always be some beloveds in any of our communities



that have some difficulty adjusting to the thing that is new



and different, I promise you.



So the better conversation to have at the outset is when,



forget about the if, just when, when there's a little bit



of rough waters, when some of our community members,



our beloveds have difficulty adjusting, what are we going



to do and to plan proactively for that? Over to you, Nancy.



Um, the piece of that that I always like to remind myself



is that often congregations feel like, um, the moment



of hire is when the diversity and inclusion work is done,



and like sort of wash our hands, sort of try to pretend



as if, well, now that we have a diverse board



or a diverse set of Sunday school teachers



or a diverse staff team, check, check, we did that.



And in fact, that's the moment when the real work begins.



So we need be surprised when the dynamics feel complex,



because this in fact is the gift we have given ourselves is,



is, um, what is unfolding



and the surprises that won't maybe happen,



but will happen when all



of a sudden our dynamics are changed



by our diverse identities.



Um, the next little seed that we put in, uh, I call



creating collective ownership,



and we write in the book, um, creating collective ownership



of everything really in congregational life.



And honest truth is



that ministers simultaneously get too much credit



and too much blame for just about everything



that happens in congregational life.



And the greater truth is that just about everything



that happens in congregational life happens



because of a enormous, um,



um, stretching out over the span of time, set



of interwoven efforts from a whole per different set



of perspectives of leaders.



Nothing just happens because the minister makes it happen.



Um, it happens because we collectively choose to own it



and move it in a direction.



And so the more we together own every single aspect



of the ministry of the congregation,



it is not the staff's job to deliver goods



and services onto the people.



Um, I sometimes say, I am not a gumball machine



where you put my salary in



and I deliver inspiration in this way.



It's, it's not transactional.



If we collectively own the ministry of the congregation,



then those relationships are in fact the ministry



of the congregation,



and we can come to them more authentically.



Yeah. Uh, and that brings us to, uh,



the next point we make at the end, which is, uh,



the existence of trust differentials.



This is kind of, this is a really important concept



to kind of, of think about.



Um, not everyone is bestowed trust in the same way



around the same sets of issues.



So, uh, uh, the great, well, I'll offer this real quick.



Uh, if I invited each of you over to my house



for a home cooked Indian meal, how many



of you would feel excited about that, right?



Because I've got the right ethnicity to cook Indian food,



but I could actually be the worst Indian cook



you've ever encountered.



So just notice that you gave me implicit trust



to do something that you have no idea whether I'm even



good at, right?



And we do this all the time, like the young guy who's hired



for the first time to be the director



of religious education,



but there's never been a guy who's done re before.



It's only been women who've done re so that's weird.



And what if he might molest our children



or behave inappropriately



with our, what are we gonna do about that?



Well, you have the same safeguards we have always had,



including for our women re directors, but it's different.



And it's weird. There's a trust differential, okay?



So that's what we mean by trust differentials.



Not everybody is bestowed trust in the same way



around the same sets of issues.



We have to be honest about that



because it's just a simple truth of life.



And, uh, folks who hold different identities have



to do a hell of a lot more work to earn trust in a,



in a majority culture system than others might.



And, and we need to both see that, honor that



and recognize that as a reality.



Over to you, Nancy.



So the last of our little blessings



and seeds from the epilogue of the book, um,



is an invitation



to forthrightly examine one's own internal bias.



Um, I write in my chapter, hustling for Our Worth.



I write about when I first came into ministry, um, I went



and bought myself a suit at the dress barn that had



shoulder pads this thick.



I have huge broad shoulders already, but I went



and bought myself essentially the uniform of the minister



that I had internalized that I was supposed to be.



I physically tried to manifest



with my own outward appearance, a version of ministry



that was not authentic to who I am,



nor could ever even attempt to be without looking,



frankly, a little absurd.



And I did that because the person who was most,



um, um, pro



to manifesting the internalized bias of authority



and upright straight shoulder, almost white man integrity,



the single person that was enforcing that in



that bias the most was me.



It was not in fact my congregants.



It was not in fact the people around the boardroom table.



It was the minister that I had come



to believe I was supposed to transform myself into in order



to earn my job, the seat at the table, my salary,



the chance to be listened to



because the person telling the story



was my own life experience.



And I needed to begin to excise that so that I could show up



as a more authentic, the, the more authentic version



of myself that my congregations have always deserved.



Um, so the more we can be brave enough not only



to point out other people's expressions of implicit bias,



but to help exercise those internal internalized expressions



of implicit bias, the closer we can get to, to being real,



um, and being relational and being transformative together.



So those are our seeds,



and I think that is the gist



of what we had to share tonight.



There's so much more I need you to know.



There's so much more, and there are



so many more voices in this piece than manishh and i's



So, so welcome. Thank



you all. Thank you Reverend Nancy



and Reverend Manishh for, for that for the time with us.



I, I wanna lead us off with the first question.



Um, and, uh, so, so many of the projections



and inherent biases that we talked,



that you all shared about



and talked about in the book, lay leaders experience those



as well, although it's not as often seen



or talked about as it is with the religious professionals,



um, uh, where congregational culture



and even individual bias



and preference defines who a lay leader should be



and what is possible.



Um, uh, so,



so have you seen these patterns affect lay leaders in our



congregations and our faith and how,



Uh, to totally, and,



and I think, you know, uh, if,



if there are folks in the circle who have either, uh,



served on search committees



or on boards, you'll be well acquainted with, with



what I'm about to say next, which is, you know, where some



of these patterns show up the most.



This, uh, hmm.



Wanting and yearning for diverse representation.



Often when we are, we're putting together a search



committee, we have to find the young adult



to be on the search committee.



We have to find a couple of different bipoc people



to be on the search read or the board in general.



Well, everybody on the board is



of the same background and experience.



Like, when are we gonna find a



young adult to be on the board?



When are we gonna find somebody of a different identity be



to be on the board of trustees?



Those are the two places I see this the most.



It probably shows up elsewhere.



It definitely shows up in denominational leadership,



uh, teams and stuff.



How do we find the person who brings a, you know,



a new perspective or different voice?



But then what happens? Now, I I, I can speak more



to the congregational side because I was a lay leader



before I became a, a clergy person.



Um, you're, you're, these, the folks that are picked



for being, holding diverse perspectives are then often



sidelined and ignored.



So once you've got the tokenized representation on the



committee, people, the behavior,



the group behavior is, we're good to go.



And then when the young person on the committee says



something that others don't necessarily agree with



or understand, they're basically ignored.



They're heard, but then they,



what they're suggesting is not done.



Uh, and the same happens pretty regularly with bipoc folk



who serve on search committees



or on boards as well, that once the box is checked,



actually following through,



actually genuinely including the person in the process



is a whole nother question altogether.



So what happens? What's the impact of that?



This is why we have a bit of a revolving door



around Bipoc folk leaving our congregations.



They try, they, you know, they're invited



with great enthusiasm into leadership positions.



They try to make the best impact they can meet.



Then they get frustrated at seeing that their,



their presence is making no difference at all.



And they'll, and, and they, and or they're being ignored



and then they'll often leave.



Nancy, uh, from your perspective, what would you say?



Um, I think it's a who sets the table? Whose table is it?



Kind of a question.



So when we think about, well, we,



we wanna have a diverse board.



Let's even just say we want some young people on our board,



and by young people in congregational context,



we often mean like, I don't know, somebody under 55,



like somebody with kids at home, right?



So we can set this intention



that we want young people on our board,



but if in fact the board table is set



with a very specific set of cultural assumptions



that do not apply to somebody who has kids at home,



you can't actually sustain.



You can't, you can't be who you are, uh,



eating at somebody else's table



that was clearly not set for you.



For instance, the way we have, um, sometimes talked about,



um, board service is that the table is set



with an expectation that you're gonna arrive with it



with a certain set of availability, um,



on evenings and on weekends, which preferences



for certain age cohorts that you're gonna come in



with a certain kind of a communication style



that can engage, uh, rapidly in, um,



sometimes highly contentious



or sometimes very conflict avoidant,



dependent on your context conversations



that you're gonna come in with a certain level



of educational attainment to be a part of this discourse



that has a set of norms that often rule people out



that might have different ways of communicating or leading,



and also also a certain set of financial capacities.



So what are the ways in which the table of leadership,



as we have said, it, is already making it difficult



for people without a whole array of dominant identities



to be a part of that conversation.



Um, so that we can never



ask people



who do not have whatever dominant identity set the table,



come and perform their non-dominant identity so



that the dominant people in the group can feel better



about themselves.



That is unfair. I have been not in a UUA context,



but in an interfaith, um,



social justice community organizing context.



I have been the token woman in a room.



And I can tell you



that being the token woman in a room there



to be window dressing so that others can feel, so



that men can feel good about their own participation,



because I'm physically in the room feels horrible.



I would rather be entirely excluded than to be included



as a symbolic representation of my identity.



And this we do, um,



to bipoc people in extravagantly more painful ways than I



have known as a, as a white woman in our spaces.



And it's not just like feeling good about ourselves



as you use or as people, it's also a legitimization of the



existing process and way of thinking.



So when you're invited in as window dressing



and you're holding different identities, your purpose is to



validate what already existed before you even showed up.



It can become that when it's tokenizing.



Thank you both. So, so I, Chuck asked a question, um, uh,



and he adds a little bit,



but I, I wanna, I wanna frame frame



the question chuck a little bit.



Um, you know, it does, we do have a lot



of our congregations, the expectation that those



who are in lay leadership are the older, longer term members



that have sometimes the excuses,



sometimes they're the ones that have more time.



So they're the ones that are invited into leadership.



Other times it is, they're the people who have been



around the longest, so they know how things work,



which is kind of an efficiency argument.



Um, uh, so, so, uh,



I think you all have pointed at this a little bit about



how we start to dismantle some of that expectation.



Um, but is there anything you would add about, particularly



around age and ageism,



but also around many of the ways that we choose people



and bring people into the real authoritative leadership



roles, the ones that have money



and decision making power, um,



how we bring them into it in ways where we do,



we do welcome their whole selves.



So part of, um, part of the answer is, well, it,



the context are gonna be different.



Congregational congregation.



It took me a bit of time to understand, you know, as I,



my career has hopped all over the country, just



how completely different our



congregations are, one or the other.



So, you know, partly solutions are gonna be local.



There isn't like a checklist we can give you, sorry,



of like, do these things at the end of the book.



We give you some principles,



but that they're not a checklist.



They're like, mind these broad principles.



These are things to kind of keep in mind



relational concepts actually.



And I think that's what we're pointing towards.



You know, one of the things I, I've seen it,



it is painful to me now.



I'm middle aged, approaching upper middle age,



but, you know, um, uh, i, I continue to see folks who are,



who are in their thirties



and, uh, when they get nominated for leadership positions,



the little bit of chit chatters, but they're so young.



And, uh, do they have the experience



to really serve in a significant leadership position?



Well, maybe that's a valid question,



but how are they ever gonna have that if we don't also offer



mentoring and relationship



and walk side by side rather than doubting and questioning?



Um, so we we're,



we start out asking the wrong sets of questions.



A better set of questions would be,



how can we get alongside this person



rather than questioning them at the outset?



Nancy, thoughts? Um, I,



I really do take inspiration from, again,



how we structured this book.



So, you know, to say that the now president



of the Unitarian University Universalist Association is a



contributor to this book in the same way



as a religious educator, as a contributor to this book.



In the same way that Manish



and I are, the, the leveling of the power dynamic



as colleagues in this task is something that



inspires me in how I show up in other tasks.



Um, so that sometimes we can inadvertently



show deference to people with dominant identities,



even if we've stated that we are all in this together



and we're all colleagues.



So if those of us who have a variety



of privileged identities can go into the space



and say, what can I learn from



this young adult colleague who is on the board?



Instead of, what can I teach this young adult



colleague who is on the board?



How can I get them up to snuff?



It's like, how can I get me up to snuff by being challenged,



by informed by,



and transformed by what they have to offer me?



Um, and the other thing that,



that sounds terrible, but is a gift.



Um, I supervise now a multicultural multiracial staff



team in the congregation that I most recently served.



I served a multi, I supervised a multicultural



multiracial staff team.



And my colleague, my, the associate minister I worked with,



she and I, um, would often remind each other that



when you are trying to do work across



difference with real diversity,



it is in fact actually harder.



The task is to work harder and work differently, right?



Do not assume that having a truly diverse team is gonna



make anything easier.



That is not the point.



The point is not to make the work easier.



The point is to make the work richer, more honest



through the pluralism at play,



which means don't feel snookered



or fooled when all of a sudden you have a diverse team.



And it's not easier, and the work feels more complicated.



It's supposed to be, because work



that feels more complicated is not necessarily work



that is less substantive.



It's transformational because of the plu pluralism involved.



So we need to be prepared to work harder



and work differently if we want to, um,



have more than window dressing among those who don't have



whatever dominant identities are at play.



You remind me of one of my maximums of ministry, which is



that the, uh, purpose of church is not efficiency.



The purpose of church is salvation and salvation affirmation



and the change of the world, right?



So, so, so the, the, so I wanna, I wanna shift us.



Thank you all. Um, there, there will, uh, be more space.



I are, are you all open to if we receive questions,



we can share them with you and we can.



Yeah. So thank you. I want to offer my deep thanks



to Reverend Manishh



and to Reverend Nancy for coming



together and sharing with us.



And you know about I said that, not just about the ways



that we're exploring how



to do leadership differently in our faith,



but also you all got kind of a meta class



and how books are developed with Skinner House,



and that's a gift, not, you know, so, so, so,



um, so thank you all.



Thank you both for coming and spending this time with us



and also for the work on the book itself



and for your decades of leadership in our faith tradition



and your service to the, to bringing deeper



of a deeper Unitarian Universalist values into our world.



And, um, uh, I'm thankful



and I thank to all of you for coming.



And I really want to thank my partner in this effort,



Lauren Wyeth, for all the effort.



Uh, I will say that, um, most of the work



to make this happen has been done by Lauren, not by me.



And so I wanna acknowledge that



and thank you all for coming.