In the battle, the bombs, ens, shrapnel, rain. Hitler told the world around, he would tear our union down, but our union's going to break them. Slavery chains, our union's going to break them chains. I walked up on the mountain in the middle of the sky, could see every farm, and every town I could see all the people in this whole wide world. That's a union terror. Down, down, down. That's a union terror. The fa down. When I think of the, and the ships going down while the Russian fight on across the dawn, there's in ruin and Paris and change Good people. What are waiting on good people? What are we waiting on? So I thank the Soviets and the mighty Chinese vets, the allies, the whole wide world around to the battling British. Thanks. You can have 10 million Yanks if it takes them to fas down, down, down, if it takes them to tear the fascists down. But when I think of the ships and the men going down and the Russians fight on across the there's in ruin and Paris and good people, good people, what are we? So I thank the Soviets and the mighty Chinese vets, the allies, the whole wide world around to the battling British. Thanks. You can have 10 million Yanks if it takes them to tear them, if it takes them to tear. The Welcome everybody. Uh, we are so glad you are here. Uh, my name is Ashley Horan. I'm the Reverend Ashley Horan organizing Strategy director at the Uua. Um, and I'm gonna be hosting tonight's conversation. But beloved, as we are so glad you are here tonight, um, we have almost 500 people registered for this conversation tonight. Um, I see about 230 are here live and many more are gonna be watching later. Um, I mean, that speaks to the urgency of this conversation and, um, the, the moment that we are living in. So, um, as we get started tonight, we're gonna dive into some heavy stuff this evening. We are so blessed to have the Reverend Cecilia Kingman with us to talk to us about her magnificent Berry Street lecture this year. Um, but before we do that, I wanna just invite us to all arrive. Um, if you are like me, you are coming from a full day full of people and responsibilities and thinking and moving and doing and being. So I wanna invite folks to just take three deep breaths together, feel your body as you do this. However it feels tired, achy, excited, exuberant, ready to fight, ready to flee. Whatever you are, it's okay. But just feel your body as we breathe three times together. We're grateful you're here. We wanna let you know that during the breakouts today, there will be some pastoral care spaces. If you find yourself in need of a chaplain, a listening ear, um, a bit of support, um, we invite you and encourage you to just take care of yourselves. During this time, we're gonna be talking about a lot of things that are hard, um, to face and acknowledge. And we wanna make sure that folks are as okay as we can all be under the current context. So we will tell you a little bit more, but know that there will be some specific pastoral care spaces in a little bit. So tonight, um, I just wanna give a little overview of what we're gonna be doing this evening. Um, Cecilia and I are gonna start with a, just a conversation. It's back and forth. Um, we ask that everybody who joins tonight, uh, already have read or watched, um, Cecilia's Berry Street lecture, which we will, um, continue to post the, the link to in the chat. If by some chance you have not seen it yet, please go do that. Um, but we assume that everybody is coming in tonight with a general, um, knowledge of what Cecilia talked about, and we're gonna dive a little bit more deeply into that. And, um, also expand out from that to talk about the implications for us as Unitarian Universalists as people of the world, um, as people who long for liberation. This is part one of a two-part series. Um, tonight, please be prepared that we are not moving into action yet. Um, if and when you are excited to do that with us, part two, which is happening in August. Um, please register for that. It is a separate registration. Um, in part two, we will talk concretely about some organizing things that we should all be doing. Um, but tonight we're really gonna reflect upon, um, all of this lands and sits with each of us and, uh, have an opportunity to hear from Cecilia. But then we will also have, um, 20 to 30 minutes in breakout spaces. We will have some general breakout spaces that are for folks who wanna engage across geographies and identities and experiences. We will also have some very specific breakout spaces for trans folks, for black, indigenous, and people of color, um, for L G B T Q folks more generally, knowing that in particular, the rise of fascism right now is targeting some of those communities more than others. And the experiences, um, that those of us who belong to those communities are going through sometimes need to be held tenderly with others who are also sharing those experiences. We'll talk more about the breakouts and what we'll be doing in a bit, but that's just an overview of the evening. Um, as Audrey said, please do feel free and ask questions. We may or may not get to them tonight, but it's good, um, for us to see sort of what your curiosities are and, um, that will help shape our, our conversation tonight and our, our going forward. So as we get started here tonight, um, Cecilia, I'm gonna give you an opportunity to introduce yourself personally in a couple of minutes here. But, um, Cecilia ask that we start with a poll tonight. Uh, and in part it's because for so many of us, um, as we learn more and more about fascism and authoritarianism, it, um, it is traumatic, uh, and it causes the responses in our bodies, in our somatic systems that trauma invokes. So, um, our poll tonight, uh, IFRA can begin to put it up on the screen here. There's gonna be a poll that pops up. We wanna know, um, what your response was to Reverend Kingman's Berry Street lecture. You'll see that we've got these four categories, uh, here up on the, the screen. And Audra, can you als, I don't know if, can we share screen and have the poll up at the same time? We're gonna try. If not, I'll talk through it. Oh, oh, there we go. Look at that. Can we have that slide with the four trauma responses on it? These are familiar to many of us, but we just wanna, we refer to a few of them. Um, fight is a, is a trauma response that's about responding to aggression with aggression. You're ready to go? Um, I wanna move into action immediately. Uh, and oh, Audra, unfortunately, yeah, we're getting the little black pieces over the screen, uh, there. Excellent. Thank you. So fight, uh, this, this particular setup, um, on this screen here, it comes from, uh, Lindsey Brahman. And I really appreciate this because this is the threat based mindset response to challenging in information, not necessarily a physical, uh, trauma or a an aggressor in your face, but how we respond when we learn information that feels threatening or challenging. So the fight response is, you are wrong. I am. Right? Or it's, let's go, let's go right now, we gotta move into action. What's the plan? Let's move. Um, flight often looks like, I can't be in this conversation. I am gonna go check my email. I'm gonna tune out. Uh, I'm gonna go somewhere else. The freeze often feels like you're not even understanding what the words that are coming at you. Um, you are not able to absorb information. You're sort of that deer in headlights type feeling. And then the font, this one is the one that's a little less familiar to many of us, um, is the performative surface level engagement, right? This is the, hmm, that was really interesting. Yep. Mm-hmm. We can have a little conversation about this. Great. Uh, and not wanna go any deeper than that. So, let's see. We'll give you another minute here for the poll. I'm seeing a whole lot of fight responses here, either. Uh, what's interesting about fight in this context is it can be either the, uh, you're wrong, I'll fight you about it. This is not actually happening, or it can be the, let's go, let's move into action right away. So we've got a pretty overwhelming percent here that are, um, here in the fight response. We've got about, uh, that 67% in that fight category, 6% in flight, several in freeze, got about 15% in freeze, and about 12% in fawn. Yeah. I'm seeing also this fawn is sometimes framed as appease, like trying to soften the aggression being aimed at you, trying to people please. Um, trying to be like, yeah, okay, that might be happening. Or let's, let's just, let's deescalate. If we all sat down at a table together, maybe we would all, um, maybe we would all just get along and we could, we could avert the coming fascist crisis. All right. Excellent. So I think we can close this poll. Um, that's really good information for us. And thankfully, yeah, I saw a text from Cecilia, but she got dropped and is back. Cecilia, I think you are here. Audra, you can stop sharing screen for a moment. There we go. Okay. So we can share these results. Um, again, we sort of landed at about a 65% fight, 6% flight, 15% freeze, 14% fawn. There is no right trauma response. There is no one way to respond to this. And the reason we started here is because actually it's really good in information. Um, if you are in a congregation, for example, and you're all trying to figure out what the plan is, it's useful to know if you are in a room that is completely full of fight people or flight people, that's gonna shape where your community lands. It's gonna shape the interventions you may wanna do to help people, people deescalate a little bit, and it's gonna shape how you move forward. So we'll have more opportunity to talk about this in a little while. Um, okay, I think we can close this out. We're gonna stop sharing that poll and we're gonna dive in with me and Cecilia. So friends, uh, as you have all experienced watching this year's magnificent Berry Street lecture, um, my Little Pony, uh, was right, the Reverend Dr. Cecilia Kingman is, um, my friend and colleague. Unfortunately, Cecilia and I have gotten to know each other mostly by, um, spinning a little bit at wild moments about what is happening in the world. Um, and I am just so delighted that she is able to be with us to talk about her lecture. Audra, can you get Cecilia up here with me in a spotlight mode here? I think we are in here. Hang tight friends. There we go. Excellent. Cecilia, thank you for being here. Um, I am delighted to have this conversation that you and I have had several times private now in front of some other people. Um, I also think it's just such a rich opportunity to hear a little bit more about what went into the creation of this, uh, incredible lecture and who you are and, um, why this all matters to us as people in congregations is just living in the world. So, um, before we dive into real deep questions, I just wanna give you an introdu, uh, an opportunity to introduce yourself for a second. Tell us what we need to know about you and how you're coming into this conversation, identities, experiences, location, et cetera. Yeah, great. I mean, I feel like anybody who's, uh, watched the address probably knows more about me than say my neighbors do. But, um, uh, I'm the Reverend Cecilia Kingman, and I, um, I'm currently a doctoral student, uh, studying the intersection of, um, uh, religious organizations, faith-based communities, and, uh, and fascism, um, authoritarianism with an, obviously with an emphasis on who, um, Unitarian Universalists and Unitarians and Universalists around the globe can be. It's pretty broad because I've only, I'm only just completed my first year and I'm still in discussion, um, about exactly how broad that should be. So, um, and I live in the greater Seattle area, and I am a mother, uh, and, um, I am, um, I don't know. I'm the owner of some really obnoxious cats. No, I'm not the owner. I'm the the person who provides their food. Um, yeah, I don't know. I think you already all know a lot about me, so. Excellent. Thank you. Cecilia. I pre-doc you, the, the Reverend Doctor two B Cecilia came. Oh, yes, thank you. No, I'm not yet the doctor Soon. Um, so I don't know. I mean, my guess is that not everybody in this webinar tonight, our 273 current participants has a personal habit of researching fascism and authoritarianism around the globe. Um, but I know it is a, a particular passion of yours, which you have just alluded to. Um, not only is it a passion, but you are willing to pay money to get letters after your name, uh, to talk about fascism and authoritarianism. So, um, I, I'm hoping you could just share with folks Sure. This, like, what, in your own life experience, why is this at the center of your work and your ministry? Sure, absolutely. So, um, as I mentioned in the address, uh, I am am the child of someone who entered, uh, the carceral state, the state carceral system. Um, I don't usually say it in public settings, which parent it was, but it was my mother. And when my mother was, um, was initially arrested, I was a student at Lewis and Clark College, which is in Portland, Oregon, just south of me. And, um, and Portland, for those of you, I know that Portland has become this, um, kind of a joke about Portlandia and all of that, but in, in all honesty, that I, in my opinion, was a way of, um, delegitimizing what happened in Portland. Portland, uh, was used, used to be known as little Beirut. That's what, um, George Bush called it. And, or actually George Bush Sr, I believe. Um, and Portland was an extraordinary place to be. Um, during that time, we had an, uh, an enormous rise in, um, in skinhead activity and, uh, and a really tremendous community response. I actually am just reading this book, and I have to give, I have to tell you all to read this. This is, um, it did happen here, which is a brand new book that, um, is out by PM Press, which is a great press. If you're not familiar with it, you should just join them and you should become a supporter. They publish all kinds of extraordinary books about organizing and all arenas of it. Anyhow, um, this is a, a people's history about what happened in Portland, and as I was just leafing through it, I was like, oh my God, that's right. You know, we lived through this. It was just an amazing time. So I went back home to Montana to have custody of my younger siblings, and when I came back to Portland, um, I left, I dropped out of school in order to do that. And when I came back to Portland, you know, it was this thriving punk scene that was, um, uh, I was not personally, uh, a skinhead, but I definitely ran in some skinhead circles. And to be clear, the skinheads in that in Portland were anti-racist skinheads, and the whole punk movement movement there was anti-racist. And so there was a lot going on, a lot of street violence. Um, and it was just a really extraordinary place. Very quickly, I had, um, two little children and was not out in the streets. But, you know, um, some of you, I think were just at the, um, the conference with Scott Nakagawa recently. Um, uh, and, um, Scott was in Portland in those years. Eric Ward, who until very recently, was the executive director of the Western State Center. You know, it was just a remarkable time. And to live in those dual realities of my mother being incarcerated, as I said in the Berry Street, I was raised like in a Republican, you know, middle, upper middle class household, and then like dropped into this whole punk scene, um, where, uh, as Eric Ward talks about it, we, it's not like we didn't, there was nobody had a plan. There was no plan. It was just the violence arrived and, and we had to respond. So, so I guess that's, you know, it's really reading this book that's made me remember what it was like in more, in those years. It was just crazy. There was so much racist violence and so much counter organizing. So, yeah. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, for so many of us, especially those of us who have kind of more privileged identities in many areas, I think there has to be some really up close and personal encounter, um, during the times when fascism is not up close for everybody, right? We are moving into a time in which we are all confronting it regardless of identity. Um, you know, people who have, are queer people, trans people, bipo folks have been living with, um, the practices of fascism and authoritarianism forever. Uh, but for those of us for whom it feels a little bit newer, um, I, I think that story that you just described as is such a perfect example of kind of came into your life, and then you're like, oh, yep, mm-hmm. Dealing solidarity with so many more people. Um, so let's talk a little bit about, uh, fascism itself. That's a big word, and it's one that some of us, um, hesitate to use sometimes. Um, I really appreciated the work that you drew on in, uh, in your Barry Street lecture and the, the definition that you use. These are your words that I, um, took out here. Fascism is a mass political movement that emphasizes extreme nationalism, militarism, and the supremacy of both the nation and the single powerful leader over the individual Cici citizen. So, Cecilia, the one didactic part that we're gonna do tonight, I'm gonna ask you to just walk us through those 10 stages of fascism that you briefly outlined in your lecture. Audrey, can you give us the next slide and we'll just talk through these real quick? Yeah. So, um, just to be clear, it's not stages. It's, um, these are the tactics. There are lists of stages, various people have, um, presented the Characteristics. Yes. Yeah. These are, but these are, these are tactics. So this is, um, Jason Stanley, and, um, oh, and that definition, I'm quite sure was not mine. I'm quite sure that that is someone else's definition that I just used. So, I mean, not used, but, you know, um, I have a habit of taking a lot of notes before I, before I, um, entered a doctoral program because I was preparing for sermons or just my own education and not being entirely clear where those things came from. So I always wanna credit, like, um, in the, in the Barry Street, um, when I talk about Jason Stanley's 10 tactics, these are, um, much of what I say is from my notes about Jason Stanley, and many of those sentences are actually Jason Stanley's, and I'm sorry, but prior to the Berry Street, I didn't go back through and like, be reread all of Jason Stanley, to be clear what was mine. So I'm just gonna give him all the credit for all the smart stuff, and anything that's an error is mine. So I just wanna say that. Um, okay. So, um, the tactics you, the, the mythic past, I think, um, this one is really, really activated right now, uh, in our national politics. And so, um, that whole make America great again, all of that, uh, this is, this is like the foundational mythology that fascists want to use, uh, in, in this moment. So, um, a mythic pass. And then the prop, you know, propaganda, obviously, we all know about propaganda. Jason Stanley actually has a really great book about propaganda, which I highly recommend too. Um, tactic number three, anti-intellectualism, uh, this whole, like the cult of the leader. So there's only one person. Uh, and you can see right now in the Republican party, there's a little insurity about, uh, or lack of clarity about who is going to be that person ultimately, but the leader of, um, you know, whoever wins the dog fight as it were, and is the leader, is the one who gets to set the rules about what is true or what is false. Um, a great example of this kind of system is when Trump rewrote the, um, remember when he had the Sharpie on the weather map? Like, that's like, yes, that is, that is the classic. When I saw that happen, I was like, here we like, this is it. Right? So, um, so tactic number four, which is this, um, creation of a form of unreality. Uh, and this is like the, the idea, it's not just that we're start to live in unreality. It's the idea that you, there is no reality upon which you can depend that fake, fake news. Alternative facts. Yeah. Alternative facts, exactly. So, um, and, and, and they don't care that people say that there's no, because it, that's part of it is just creating this uncertainty. The ground is unstable under you. So, um, the fifth tactic, the hierarchy is just, you know, I don't even think I need to say anything more about that, is just about supremacies. Okay? Um, and then victimhood, which is, uh, um, this whole concept that, um, you've lost something that, that, I mean, in reality, if you have lost something, if you're in a, in an increasingly multiracial, um, uh, moving, moving hopefully towards more, towards greater democracy, uh, then if you were in, in power, you have lost something. It's not hard to, to, uh, seize on that and create then a sort of a victimhood idea to say, like, you, you're having things stolen from you. You're having your, um, your way of life is being stolen from you. So, um, and then we have law and order, which is, um, this one is really fascinating to me. This idea that it's law and order, um, is not, uh, justice. It's not what we, what I mean, even those of us who might have, when growing up believed that, or even still perhaps have some attachment to the idea that, that like, police are there to help people or whatever, whatever. Even if you still get hooked by that myth or something like that, that's not what law and order is. Law and order is the definition of who is legitimate, who, um, who is, uh, who belongs in some ways. And, um, and it will always be enforced by violence. Like that is, that's the piece that just stabs me, me in the heart every time. It's like, it will always be enforced by violence. So, um, tactic number eight is called sexual anxiety, which I think is a really unfortunate name for it, because it sounds like something other than I think it really is. But it's a created idea that somehow, um, uh, the shift in, um, away from traditional values is somehow threatening, um, creating harm, causing harm, um, and, uh, that the, that the folks who are, um, what we would say, folks who are just trying to live their lives and live out loud, um, that somehow they're trying to destroy the dominant group's way of life and, and that they're coming for the children. So this, all this stuff about pedophiles and all of that stuff, all that anxiety comes out of this place too. Um, the ninth tactic, uh, Sodom and Gomorrah, which I, I, um, I think is just a really fascinating, this goes back to that, um, that the idea that somehow the nation needs to be purified. And so they use this urban, rural thing, um, the, like, you know, the, the people who live in middle America and work hard, and I don't know, I, um, uh, you all can think of the, these, you know, where these tropes get activated, uh, in our media and in our, in our political dialogue. But, um, but then there's the other America, which is urban, which is, um, uh, people of color, which is immigrants, which is, you know, all of these, and these things are not, it's not really true that these two things exist in this, um, clearly delineated way, but this is the trope that gets used. So, um, and so they play that again, that those two sides have to be played against each other, and that one is pure and the other one is not. Um, so, um, then the 10th tactic, uh, and it's important to note that Stanley is the, um, is, uh, from a family of Holocaust survivors, his parents, uh, and his grandparents, uh, and, um, that this arbit mock fry work shall make you free. Um, the idea that everyone who is targeted by fascist, that they're all lazy, that they, um, that they need to be taught some kind of, um, ethic of work of that, that, um, and that only people who can work have value. So this is a very, very dangerous, um, tactic. So that's the 10. It's hard to watch that and hard to see all of the examples that are right there. My coworker is deciding to make a special appearance here with us all. Um, so Cecilia, let's talk a little bit about, so part of the reason why we came up with this is that I called you up and I said, I've talked to seven congregations in the last month that have had the Proud Boys or the Oath Keepers show up outside of their drag show event, or their, um, you know, because they had a pro-abortion sign outside on the wayside pulpit. Um, this is happening with more and more frequency, is that not just, um, individuals, but, but our congregations are now have become the targets. Okay? Just a minute. They're now the targets. So my question for you is, why, why are our congregations, which have not always been in the crosshairs, um, why are they, uh, now in the, in, in the spotlight from some of these far white extremist groups? This is a great question. Um, it, it starts with, uh, um, well, we have, if we look at who actually makes up our congregations, um, historically Unitarian Universals have not been in targeted groups, although I, I wanna say that very carefully because of course, we have been, um, we have always had among us folks who have marginalized identities. And, um, and yet if you ask the average person, you know, if they even know what a Unitarian Universalist is, uh, 30 years ago, they probably would not have given, given you, um, some sense that we would've been a targeted group, right? So, um, what happens is that in the, in the rise of fascism, first, first targeted groups are, um, scapegoated and the, and are the, um, are the targets of violence. Uh, and then people who support them, people who speak out, people who organize, anyone who, um, anyone at all who begins to push back against this becomes a target. So, um, eventually all intellectuals become tar, you know, it's eventually anyone who doesn't sign the party document, right? We, we know how that goes, but the reason that our congregations are becoming targeted is because our congregations are organizing and are doing the work. And so it's actually, it's a, I'm proud, like, I'm proud that, that our people, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying to be targeted by white nationalists or, you know, whoever, you know, any form of fascism, but it means that you're doing something and it means that you are, um, that you are in fact pressing back sufficient that these folks are taking notice. So that's why. And then as, as, um, we continue to like, decide with love team, why are we being targeted? The side with love team is doing its job. That's why. Um, so I don't think we're at a state yet where it's sort of a universal targeting of Unitarian Universalist congregations. Um, that would be actually another marker that we were really, really living our values and living our faith in the public square, if you ask me. So I'm not gonna say we're hoping for that day, but in some ways we're Hoping, oh, we're hoping that the, that it'll calm down, but Right. But that's, but, but that's what we need to think about is like, um, exactly. You know, if, if, uh, to oppose fascists is to become a target Yep. And when the fascists, uh, are quieter and don't have huge chunks of power or a large organized following, or before they had the internet, um, before we all had the internet, uh, you know, then, then, um, what might happen would be maybe some hate mail or whatever, whatever. Right now we're seeing this, the incredible organizing power that the internet has given, um, has given hate groups, the cover, the, the radicalization of Republican party. All of this has just made it so the stochastic terrorism, it's just made it so that, um, we're more likely to be targeted in ways that are really threatening and unsettling. Yeah. Yeah. I do wanna respond to this question in the chat. Please give more info when our congregations are being targeted. Uh, so what we're seeing is, uh, everything from the Proud Boys showing up in protest when there is a drag story hour planned at a congregation to, um, right wing Christian nationalists infiltrating events in congregations and filming, um, trying to get to go viral, uh, on the internet, or to get news coverage on something like Tucker Carlson. Um, we are seeing, uh, you know, sort of Westboro Baptist type folks come into, you know, make threats against congregations, including death threats against some of our ministers and leaders. Um, we are seeing, uh, you know, vandalism, we're seeing, uh, you know, armed folks show up and make threatening, uh, you know, accusations. So I, I'm not just talking like, sort of, you know, out there on the internet, like we are, we are seeing physical presence of, um, right-wing groups, uh, show up with more and more frequency at our congregations. Um, thus far, we have not had any, um, any real harm that has happened, but often because one of the strategies of, um, the far right is intimidation and fear. Um, what they're trying to do actually is to get enough attention and to make themselves feel big enough so that you will stop your event so that you will retreat, go back into your turtle, shell not do the thing that you were advertising and keep a low profile. It's, they're trying to get you to fawn because they think that Fawn is actually the easiest response for them to, to deal with. Um, we, we can talk more about that. And in fact, um, maybe one of my side with love comrades can drop the, the page link to the already done preparing Done. They already, They already did It. Amazing. Check it out. We've, we've done a couple of webinars about this and ways that you and your congregation can prepare, um, if you are anticipating something, especially for our southern congregations that are preparing for pride, um, in the coming couple of months, pride in the South usually happens in the fall rather than during the summer. Um, please check those out. So, and Ashley, yeah, go ahead. Well, I also, I just noticed as you were talking, I was, uh, looking through the chat, and I wanna lift up two other things really quickly that folks have raised. Um, the first of which is, um, uh, Connie, your point about beside our being supporters of targeted groups, we have large numbers of members and staff and ministers who are LGBTQ plus. Um, and we're not just supporters of the L G B LGBTQ community. Many of our people are part of the L G B LGBTQ A. Absolutely. I think the distinction that I wanna make here is that, um, that is that unlike Metropolitan Community Church or something, our identity as a religious organization is not that we are an LGBTQI plus community. That, uh, in fact, the, what has flagged us now, uh, for these, these, um, attacks that may be too strong a word, but for this interest, this unsettling interest is the public stands we're making the, um, the vocal support we're making for trans folks, for, it's, it actually began when people started hanging Black Lives Matter flags. All of that was an initial, uh, response to our public advocacy. Um, and the other thing I just wanna loop back really quickly, and somebody, uh, listed the, uh, mentioned about, um, our congregations being targeted by the F B I 60 some years ago. You notice I said 30 years ago, we weren't, um, actively targeted. It's also, this is a slight difference as well, that 60 years ago when we were being, and when the F B I was targeting us, that was because of the, um, that wasn't so because of, uh, necessarily our congregations, um, organizing against, uh, the anti-communist, uh, sentiment. It was that they were actively looking for communist, uh, sympathizers in places like Unitarian Universalist Con, or at that time, Unitarian congregation. So I think that's a really important distinction too. Yeah. Okay. Couple more questions before we go to breakout. Um, you know, we often, uh, our congregations proudly identify as liberal institutions. Many of our members identify as liberals, um, both politically and theologically. What is it about liberalism, about neoliberalism that makes it hard for us to fully accept that this is happening, that this is coming, um, for us to fully face the realities of oncoming fascism and authoritarianism? And I, I asked this question because, um, you know, you and I have several times over the past couple of years said how people are, you know, people are calling us hysterical. Like, you know, we, why are you tell talking to all these people about what could happen before the election, and then January 6th happens, and then the proud Boys show up? And, um, I have actually a lot of empathy for that because it is so jarring to actually really embrace, not embrace, but to even just assimilate what is happening. Um, but I do think that there is a common thread, right? But, uh, between liberalism and li neoliberalism theology and politics, that makes it really hard for us. So I wanna hear your take on that. You know, um, obviously I knew these questions were coming before we gathered. Uh, if, if anybody didn't know that already. So I have thought really, really hard about this question, Ashley, since you proposed it to me last week. Um, I think it's a, it, it's a really complex, one, more complex than I initially realized when we were talking last week. Um, f first off, the distinction between liberal religion and liberalism, and God help us neoliberalism is a very, um, it's, those are nuanced differences. But I also think, um, that, uh, this goes to the complicity that, uh, that our faith tradition, and I did talk about this in the essay, that, um, our, the, the people who were particularly Unitarian, but not just Unitarian, also Universalists in the United States, who were, um, you know, who were deeply enmeshed in, um, in the slave trade by way of the textile industry, all of those, so, um, James Freeman Clark's onward and upward for the progress, uh, of man, you know, all of that. Um, we talked about that last week, that that's like a, that is liberalism. And that is, that is, and that's the lie of neoliberalism. And, um, as a religion, a faith that is, that came out of white people's experience, particularly northeastern white people's experience, um, and the, the East, which, which North Easterners pretended that they were not part of the slave trade, all of that. I just, I think that, that, that we can't answer that question without examining that, that piece. And, and, and that's gonna be a chunk of work ahead for someone other than me. Cause I, I have plenty of other things that I, like, literally read all the time about this stuff. So, but you, you know, that, that, that piece of it, and that, um, like you said earlier, anytime that there, um, I privilege blinds us, and I'm sorry for that language, um, I should use a different word, but it, it, um, Privilege makes us ignorant Privilege, thank you. Instead of the, the wounding metaphor, yes, privilege makes us ignorant, or it allows us, it allows us to stay ignorant. And so it is still true that the vast majority of unitarian universalists are, um, are white, well-educated, like this is just, this is part of what keeps us, um, wedded to a system that has benefited us. And until we really do so, we can't fight fascists and not do our own work around white supremacy. Like these things are absolutely glove in hand together because we can't see the, the, um, effects of fascism in our country, clearly, if we are still, and we can't effectively organize against it if we're still attached to the benefits of the system that let fascism grow in our country. Yep. So last question. Um, I think we could, we could probably do a whole series on what you just unpacked there for us. Um, but one of the things that is so admirable to me about you is that you have been in this for so long, and you have managed to sustain your faith and your hope, um, while also being very realistic. And so I'm hoping you can take a minute and, and talk to us just about the spiritual practices that have helped you to maintain, um, and to stay stable enough to continue to, to do the work you're doing. Thanks. Um, I would say, uh, first and foremost, for me, the, the life of prayer is I, I, I just, I, you know, I, I was raised in a Christian tradition. I am still a, a theist and still a Christian. And so for me, prayer is absolutely, um, central, uh, for other people, it's other things. But for me, that prayer in that, um, and the other, the other thing that I would say, um, it really, for me, really, um, getting sober during the, which we joked about, like, I got sober during the Trump years, and I always tell people I think I should get like a special button for getting sober during the Trump years. But the, you're right, like lots of people became alcoholics during the Trump years. It's like, cause we all have our coping mechanisms, but that, um, that, that the practice of, um, of rigorous, uh, examination is one that it, you know, having to examine where I am engaged in these things. Um, and, and it's not to say that I don't like, I definitely have my days like wor working on this essay, being with it every single day. I mean, I, I generally am reading and writing about fascism, but like the last three months of this were hard. And I took a lot of naps, and I prayed a lot more than usual. And I, um, I don't think I could survive without the, the laughter and the joy of the people that, you know, um, with the people that I got to know in the streets actually, uh, over the years, like the, the joy and the, um, sense of purpose, uh, if I was just engaging this in an academic way, um, I think it would eat me alive, frankly. It, it has to be for me paired with, uh, with organizing action, because that's actually what keeps me from giving into despair. Yeah. Yeah. And Ashley, Ashley Harran did not pay me to say that. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's how I keep doing it too, is just like, uh, you know, my mantra that anybody who's ever been on a webinar with me has heard me say is we take shifts for the revolution. And part of what I mean by that is that like we cannot all be on all the time. There has to be a, a whole, a deep bench of people who are all doing the work in different ways, who have different skills, passions, who take breaks at the same time, who rest, who find joy, and who keep the work going. Because there's enough of us that you don't have to stop everything if one people, if one person needs a break, right? Right, Right. And it is that praxis, right? It's an action reflection, like all of that, the, um, that doing that being in organizing circles, but also stepping back to be in, um, in a place of meditation, prayer, family, all of that. Uh, it, it's not just that we need to take breaks, it's that those breaks also allow us to Yes. Yeah. Work in the back of our head, as it were, and reorganize in a new way. So, yeah, I mean, the struggle is the life. Like, that's, that's what Aria Diaz says. The struggle is the life, and yes. Yeah. So we're gonna let folks struggle together a bit, um, for the next little while. We are gonna go into breakout rooms for about 20 ish minutes, but I do wanna just give you the two questions, or the two sort of series of questions that we are gonna invite you to consider. And they are these, so the first is back to this flight fight, fawn freeze, um, response. So what was your first response? Um, and of course, you know, some of you observed in good Unitarian fashion that your particular word was not among the four up upon the screen. So you can add some more words to, uh, to your self description. But, you know, in those four categories where what's your initial reaction, and then what does that tell you about what you might need to do to prepare yourself for the coming times? Um, what do other people in your community need to do? Um, what is the lineage that you come from? Are you from a family of fighters or fls or fawns? Um, what have you inherited? And, and what are you surrounded by? That's the first category of question. The second category is the second question about, yes, indeed. Um, what spiritual practices do you, um, your lineage, your, your people offer, um, in this struggle to stay in the struggle, right? So what are the, what are the spiritual practices, the, um, the resources that you draw on from your faith, from your spiritual life, from your lineage, that will keep you in, um, being able to do this work without succumbing to overwhelm? Okay. As folks are coming back, um, slowly here, first of all, thanks to everybody for your patience as we, it's, it is a thing to get 300 people into breakout rooms. So thank you for being patient. Um, we hope we gave you enough time to at least have some juicy conversation. We'd love to hear from you in the chat. Um, any major realizations, takeaways, um, epiphanies questions that you might have. We're gonna move into a time of q and a here in a moment. Um, so we invite you to add, uh, to put your, your thoughts and your questions in the chat too. We also, if there is a question that you have, actually, I'm gonna ask folks to put your questions in the q and a at the bottom of the, um, yes, coworker speaking over there, uh, to put your things in the q and a section. Thank you. Okay. I think we've got most of our folks back. Um, just I'm seeing in the chat some people asking for, um, the references. Again, just to let you all know, you will, if you signed up for this webinar, you will get a follow up email in the next few days, sometime this week with, um, the recording of this conversation, as well as all of the links and references that we made. So you don't have to worry about tracking the chat. Those will all come to your inbox. Okay. Um, fabulous. So, Cecilia, um, Audra, can you bring me and Cecilia back up in the middle here for a minute so we can get talking again? I love these observations as we're going here. Um, yes, yes, yes. Oh, also, I wanna acknowledge that like we had imperfect identities. People have multiple identities at the same time. Um, there are queer and trans bipo people, there are people with many different identities. Thank you for making it work and finding a place where you could connect with some other human beings. We appreciate you. Um, yeah. Takeaways here. We need multiple tactics to counter the multiple strategies of fascism. Um, we need each other. Community is so important as well as finding balance with self-care. Um, yes, a lot of, I love that our spiritual practices, as you use, involve nature, which is so wonderful. Um, yes, our gender diverse room is very tired, and we've had to change our strategies and learn when we need to rest. Hugely important, um, somatic healing and movement-based practices fuel several of us. Um, lots of us are from the south in one group. Not surprising that threats are especially worrisome there. Yeah, lots of really good observations. So Cecilia, you and I were kind of chatting behind the scenes here. What, what question do you wanna start with here? What feels juicy to you? Um, well, I think the, the one that's come up more than once, we should definitely tackle that one. Uh, this question about is it the mechanisms, um, uh, fascism as an ideology or fasc fascism as a mechanism? Um, so yeah, I'm happy to talk a little bit more about that. Um, so, uh, and the, I think these questions are coming out of actually watching the address, not our time together, right? So, um, so it's just really important to understand that, uh, that people can be susceptible, or, excuse me, can use, um, fascist tactics, the tactics that we just talked about, uh, and not actually be ideologically fascist. Just be interested in maintaining power. So there's a difference between the ideology of fascism and the, um, and, and, and, and the, the use of these tactics. And where it gets confusing, I think, is that if you are using these tactics, you are probably, um, spouting ideological, uh, fascism. Uh, but you may or may not believe it. And, and, and the example that I always give for this, uh, well, always like in the last six months is when the whole thing came out about Fox News and folks saying like, you know, the, the, the, the background conversation that was going on with Tucker Carlson and all these other people who were saying like, you know, these, they were making fun of the viewers. They were, uh, um, decrying Trump's messaging and all of this stuff. Um, there are people who are tactically fascist because they want to maintain their own wealth and privilege and access to power. Um, and yeah, so that's, so that's, it's an important distinction. Um, and, and we all can also be, any of us can be susceptible to the tactics of fascism, even to using them ourselves to achieve what we think is, uh, greater good, um, uh, even if we don't buy, um, the ideology. So, and, and it's a slippery slope too, I wanna say it's a slippery slope. Who buys the ideology? I would have to say, in all honesty and rigorous honesty, I have elements of me that have fascist ideology. And then because I'm a white person in the United States, like there's no way. I don't have some ideological fascism in my head. So I think it's really important for us to be honest about that. Lia, I actually wanna follow up with that. I've gotten a couple of questions, um, privately here. Why, to me, the connection is very obvious, but I don't think it is to everybody. Why is it so important that we do work around, um, identity around various systems of oppression, systemic oppression, um, in order to combat fascism? Why is it important that we have competency in anti-racism and anti-oppression and multiculturalism skills in order to fight fascism? Because you'll get sucked in to the maintenance of your own privilege and power by one form or another. You'll believe one of those tactics, you'll believe one of the lies, you'll protect your own skin. Like this is always what happens. Um, that whole, the fawn response, I know, um, it got defined in a particular, uh, way for the, our time together. I think it's important to realize that, um, obeying in advance is a form of fawning response. And obeying in advance is one of, that's, uh, one of the things that Timothy Snyder talks about. Obeying in advance is one of the first things that begins to happen when we begin to see the civic violence that comes as a precursor to actual fascism in, um, in the halls of power. Okay? So we currently have civil, civic violence going on. Here's a way that, um, obeying in advance can happen that I think is really, uh, obvious, uh, in my family. Um, we have, we put a big, big, big, big, like one, the biggest one you could order, um, uh, flag up that is, you know, all it's the newest of the trans queer L G B T Q, like the whole, the flag with all the many stripes in the triangle, for those of you who, who would recognize that? And, um, and I had people, I had people who agree with our val, our family's values, say to me, aren't you concerned about the response that that flag is, you're like, we're on a corner, we're next to a public school, like my, you know, all of that. And it was like, yeah. In our family, we don't start by cal. Like, we just, that's not where we start. You know, if somebody's gonna come and like do something to us, then we'll have a conversation about safety. But that is obeying in advance. It's not just obeying, um, systems of power. It's also beginning to limit how you move. And this, we, if we don't examine our own privilege and our own locations and our own identities, we will not know when we are doing that. So I've seen this, um, up close and personal. When we first launched you the vote, um, we had so many people who were like worried out of their minds that we couldn't do anything related to anything political. Mm-hmm. Or we were gonna get in trouble. Mm-hmm. Um, so literally the first public webinar that we ran was about i r s, you know what the real rules, what the I r s actually says, tax statutes. And most people have this picture of like, my congregation's gonna get sued, we're gonna lose our status, we're gonna get disbanded. Um, like, we're gonna go to jail if we have somebody who says something that's political, partisan political from the pulpit. Um, it's the classic example of obeying in advance, right? Of right. Poverty, Running scared. Yeah. Right. And so part of our work is to actually understand what our rights are and what our, um, what the laws are. And that is even more complicated now that we have a 50 state country rather than a one, right? Like the, the Supreme Court now is moving in a way that is saying that each and every state is gonna get to determine what the laws are. And so that is one of the tactics that's gonna be used to confuse people and enforce this sort of, they don't even have to enforce, right? It's the, it's the obeying. Yeah. And I, and I wanna make a distinction between people making plans to, especially people of targeted identities. Um, I think it is wise and, um, prudent if you haven't already done so, to begin to prepare if you like, really, I hope you already were, but if you weren't preparing folks who are of targeted identities, um, to protect your families and, and, uh, yourselves, uh, then get on it. Like, I'm just gonna say like, get on it and get and, and reach out to, to allies that you can count on for that. This is it, it is there. It it's bad people. It's bad. Um, so I wanna make a distinction, though, between that and, um, understanding your, your privilege identity, uh, uh, um, kind of be like, if your privilege, again, you can ignore what's happening, or you can convince yourself that you're not gonna be targeted or, you know, it's not that bad. I mean, you and I, how many times did we have a conversation, uh, prior to and after the 2016 election, Ashley, where we were like, okay, yeah, people, it, it doesn't get bad, like at overnight it gets bad as a trajectory, right? So, um, it's bad folks. It's, it's much, much worse than it was when Donald Trump was president and it's going to get worse and worse and worse. I said, I wouldn't say this, didn't I, I'm gonna bring us back to this last question of the evening. Um, so actually, I want us to notice this, right? 8 29, we are not on a high, we are not on a hope moment. And my guess is that, especially for those of us who are preachers that we're taught that you gotta bring them back, right? Take 'em to calvary at the end, um, that we have to end somewhere. And so I am actually gonna offer you a question that's a little bit, it's, it's less about like, hope for the situation. It's less onward and upward forever. Everything's gonna be fine. And more about, um, where we can find hope and connection and inspiration in the midst of what we are in. So our final question for the evening, Cecilia, knowing that we could go on for hours here with all of this and these wonderful questions, is can you give us some examples of, um, Unitarian Universalists or just general people who have resisted, who have fought back and done things that have successfully combated either in the short term or the long term encroaching fascism? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the first thing I would say, Ashley, is the work, really the work that you're, you all are doing. Um, it, and, and you're obviously, you're part of coalitions, but this, the work of coalitions that's happening right now is, is, um, enor, it gives me enormous hope, um, for our country, um, uh, the work that the Western State Center does. And, um, uh, you know, some other organizations like that. But I'm just such a huge fan of the Western State Center, and they've been, you know, struggling to identify and organize against white nationalists for really long, These are for the Western State Center. I think they're gonna join us for our August webinar. Um, cause I had a great hangout with them at the 22nd Century Democracy Conference. Um, but yes, Chuck will, we'll, again, we'll drop a link for the Western state center, right? Uh, yeah, I mean, the cop city, the good work that's going on all over. The thing is, there's not gonna be one moment. It's just this is, we're, this is the struggle and it, and so I think we have to look for moments of success and strategizing. Um, and then to know that, you know, as we've talked about the arc of his, it, it's not, the, the linear time is not linear. The arc of history is like one way of conceptualizing it. But these spiraling seasons of, um, of how we live through human history. So Yeah, you and I talked about, you know, stone Stonewall was a resistance to this. I mean, God, look at Matt Turner's slave rebellion, all of these, all of the ways that in smaller and larger communities, people have resisted. And even if those particular instances of resistance did not quote unquote, you know, succeed, um, on large scale ways, the fact that we remember them, the fact that we honor and commemorate them, the fact that we are still learning from them means that they're part of that lineage too, of, of encroaching liberation, right? If we are, we're countering, encroaching fascism. Like let us draw on our lineages of liberation as well, Right? Absolutely. And it's always breaking in. That's what Christian say about, you know, the, the, the kingdom of God. It's always breaking in. Always. Yep. That question is, So as we close tonight, first of all, Cecilia, I just wanna offer you such gratitude, um, both personally and on behalf of these 200, some folks, uh, who have gathered here tonight to hear you and who have, um, been blessed by, by your Barry Street. And, um, we are grateful for you and for your ministry and the opportunity to learn together. Thank You, You, As we close tonight, I'm gonna end with, um, the words of Marge Pearcy, the poet, uh, who, um, is one of my very favorite poets and whose words I come back to time and time again. This is her palm, the low road. What can they do to you? Whatever they want, they can set you up. They can bust you, they can break your fingers. They can burn your brain with electricity, blur you with drugs till you can't walk. Can't remember. They can take your child wall up. Your lover. They can do anything. You can't stop them from doing. How can you stop them alone? You can fight, you can refuse. You can take what revenge you can, but they roll over you. But two people fighting back to back can cut through a mob. A snake dancing file can break accordion. An army can meet an army. Two people can keep each other sane and give support. Conviction, love, massage hope. Sex. Three people are a delegation, a committee, a wedge with four you can play bridge and start an organization with six. You can rent a whole house, eat pie for dinner with no seconds, and hold the fundraising party. A dozen make a demonstration. A hundred, fill a hall, a thousand have solidarity and your own newsletter. 10,000 power and your own paper, a hundred thousand, your own media, 10 million, your own country. It goes on one at a time. It starts when you care to act. It starts when you do it again after they said no. It starts when you say we and know who you mean. And each day you mean one more might be so friends blessed, it'd be Asha. And I'm meant to all of you. Thank you Cecilia, and thank you to all of you. Um, we will check you out in August. Don't forget to register for part two of this event where we are gonna talk about action steps for all of us. We are so grateful to be in this tonight and in the long haul. Friends, be well. Take care.