Rev. Phil Lund 0:06 Welcome, everyone. I'm Phil Lund from the Mid America region, I work for the Congregational Sife staff. And this is part of our three webinar series on sharing. Last month, we had one on sharing worship. Next month, we're going to have one on sharing youth programming. And I'll tell you a little bit more about those at the end. The links for the recording for the one on worship that we've already done and where you can register for the one on sharing youth programming. And these webinars have been hosted by your congregational life staff members who work with small congregations, and a lot of them are here tonight. And we have Sarah Schurr. And Erica Baron and Megan Foley is here. And Beth Casebolt is here helping us with our tech and making sure that the recording for this webinar will be up and all sorts of wonderful things. And then of course, our special guest tonight is Jan Gartner, who is the compensation and staffing practices manager from the Office of Church Staff Finances, at the UUA. Did I get that right, Jan? Okay, so I'm gonna stop sharing my screen now. And I'll let Jan take it away. Unless you have anything else you need from us to start out here, Jan. Jan Gartner 1:34 I think I'm good. And I just I'm gonna click through and see everyone's lovely faces before I start sharing my screen. That's great. It's nice to see everybody. And I was saying, before we got started that this is, it's an interesting time, I'm feeling this shift. And maybe you are kind of reached a steady state with a pandemic, where we kind of figured everything out, finally, and now it feels like there's some movement into some unknown. Next thing. So this is a really interesting time to be talking with you. And I'm going to share my slides. Let's see. All right, hold on, let me get this in. In the mode that I want to get it in. There we go. All right. So here I am. And Phil already told you who I am. And so just about the the Office of Church Staff Finances, we have a mission guided by the values of our faith. We equip congregations for excellence as employers and their staff for financial competence and well being. So you might think of me as someone who deals with numbers and benefits and salary recommendations. And I do do that. But I really love the broader equipping, equipping congregations as employers piece of my work, which is all kinds of things around staff teams, and supervision, and what do good job descriptions look like, and all kinds of fun stuff. And so this sharing staff page came out of my, out of a number of conversations with some of your congregational life staff, and also just my own my own interactions with leaders about how might we make things work by sharing a position. So there's a lot of what I'm saying tonight is kind of regurgitating what is on a web page. And you'll I'll be sure that, you know, have a link to that web page. But let's, let's see what we can talk about together. This is going to be pretty informal. Like I said, it feels like we're moving into a new time. And we're calling this the multi platform era. So multi platform being some things are online, some things are in person, some things are both some of the in person, things are indoors, some are outdoors, there are just so many different ways that you can make your programming work. And we've learned so much in the past year, about how how we can do church, right, even if we can't be in the building, and we're going to be holding on to some of those learnings as we move into a time where we can get together in person. And I think as we look at all of the options and and all of the needs, that sharing staff across congregational lives is going to be one really good key to success for many of you. All right, so we'll talk about why, how questions to consider, and I want to make sure you're aware of the congregational collaboration board, I don't want you to spend too much time trying to figure out why I put different animals on each page. I mostly wanted to keep you wondering, I, you know, like, Oh, this is gonna be fun, because there's this cool animal next to it. All right. All right. So why I these are the reasons that I came up with for sharing for sharing staff. And I'll bet that some people on this call and some of my colleagues in the congregational life area could probably add to this, but I see it as a chance to expand work opportunities for talented staff, we have so many UUA congregational staff members doing such great work, and they're in small congregations that can't sustain them for full time or maybe even half time. And so if those people are really good at something, can we give them more opportunities to share their talents and their skills within the uuu world, and in so doing that can enhance programs and services in UU faith communities, a congregation that might not be able to afford professional quality leadership in a certain area might be able to get something really great by tagging on to work that's being done by another congregation, and getting some of those staff hours. And finally, I just think this is part of living our theology of interdependence, right? our congregations are meant to be in relationship with each other. And so this is one key way to do that. Anybody want to share any of you, my ua colleagues have another y that you've been thinking about that you'd like to add? Rev. Phil Lund 7:10 One that I've been thinking about? Jan, I've just noticed over the last year that more congregations have been relying on tech people to work with the, with the technology, obviously, but you know, mainly doing the zoom meetings and stuff like that. And that's going to be with us, you know, having that kind of ability to broadcast our worship services and do programming online and things like that. So having that support is good. And as you were saying, small congregations, can't hire people, you know, half time or three quarters time or full time, but, but perhaps several congregations could hire a tech person to have a decent job. And I've also thought that social media is something that congregations could perhaps benefit from having like a social media specialist. And, again, that's a position I think that could be easily shared, and that somebody could do for several congregations. So I think there are new opportunities for different kinds of staff people. Now that might be particularly well suited to sharing positions. Jan Gartner 8:15 Yeah, that's great. Thank you for that. We definitely have had our, our minds and our hearts to opened up to possibilities in this past year for all the struggle of that. Also, you know, I have to say, we've been talking about, could we get smaller congregations to collaborate and share staff? I mean, this isn't a brand new idea this year, but it seems more possible, you know, whether it's because we've experimented with it more, or just people are more open to doing things in new ways. So that's, that's the exciting piece of this time. Alright, Rev. Sarah Schurr 8:56 let's Yeah, I was thinking about how so many small congregations have counted on volunteer efforts for so long. And as society changes and people's work life balance changes, they're just so fewer volunteers to do the important things. So congregations that didn't have staff before are going to have to do a little bit of hiring. And this is Yeah, Jan Gartner 9:19 yeah. Absolutely. And we know, you know, it's going to be interesting right now, right? Because we know some congregations had to reduce hours of some of their staff over the past year because of, you know, their work, their rentals went away and other sources of income. But I think we're gonna see some shifting back and that presents some new opportunities. So that was kind of the why and let's shift into the how and I don't feel like I know everything on this topic, and we're all going to be learning together. But here are some of the things that I've noticed and figured out as a result of my congregate my conversations. So one has to do with congregations already being in relationship, or is this an arrangement that might be between two congregations that haven't had any kind of relationship? I want to plant an important seed here that I hope that in as many cases as possible. The impetus for sharing really is coming from the congregation's. I mean, we know that there are cases of cases congregational staff who are part time who fish around and pick up hours at another congregation. And that's great. There's nothing terrible about that. But when the arrangement isn't really solidified between the two congregations up front, it can cause for some tension. So in as many cases as possible, I am hoping that either the impetus comes directly from the congregation, or at the very least, that the that the congregations involved will be in touch with each other early to figure figure out various pieces. So already connected. I mean, sometimes it might be, you know, a couple of ministers talking at a at a chapter gathering for, you know, with their colleagues, and someone will say, Oh, yeah, you know, our membership coordinator is doing these fantastic classes. And the other person would be like, Oh, you know, could they do them for us? Could we join your classes, you know, so it can might evolve organically, it might be more intentional, but still among people who already know each other. Or maybe there's already some kind of shared programming going on. And this is a way of expanding the relationship between the two congregations. Even if there's not, even if it's just one person who happens to have hours in two different places, there's nearly always a need for intentional coordination at at the congregation level, to work out specifics of the arrangement might have to do with things like time off, we'll talk a little bit later about benefits. So just an awareness that this is not just about the person, it is about your congregations being in relationship in some way. Now, I noticed that in some cases, there's one employer. So one congregation say already has a religious educator, and that religious educator is going to do things for another congregation. And instead of the other congregation becoming a second employer, that original employer is going to have an arrangement, there's going to be some expanded hours, there's going to be a monetary arrangement to account for the extra hours that that religious educator needs to provide programming for, say, a neighboring congregation. So this works, this idea that there's one employer, one supervisor, right, that works pretty well, you know, one, payroll, one, W two, all that, that that often works really well if there's either shared programming, or if there's, one is say, a, you know, a youth group, where multiple congregations are all having their youth come together for a single youth group, there might be one employer and that situation one congregation takes on that role. It could also be, like I said, with with a religious educator who is starts out with a with a program that's for their congregation, and then provides that programming or those services to people from other congregations. And there's a relationship that gets formed. It requires some clear understandings. There's some things that are more straightforward about it. But it does, you know, what is the relationship of the other congregation? There are different what ifs that you'd want to think about, you know, if you have a program that may be working really well for one congregation, but not for another, you know, what does that look like? So you could probably come up with a list of questions. Any of you feel or anybody have you run into this where there's a single employer but services go into more than one congregation? Can you think of any little Tips for work or pitfalls. Rev. Sarah Schurr 15:10 When I did it, I was employed by the district that was back in back in the olden days, and employed me and then subcontracted me out to congregations. And that worked pretty well. I can imagine that happening when they say a larger congregation subcontracted out to smaller congregations in the area. Jan Gartner 15:30 Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I didn't even think of that arrangement. Very good. You also might have a relationship where each each of the involved congregations has their own relationship with that single employee. So you know that that person is getting a paycheck from each one is getting separate a whole bunch of separate things from each of the congregations that that they're working for. And it still requires coordination, sometimes a little differently. Certainly, on no matter what you do, you, you might have to work out some scheduling issues, benefits, which I'll talk about a little bit later, shared costs, we've had some situations where things weren't clarified upfront. And sometimes it's okay to kind of play things by ear. And I think that has to, that can sometimes work better with congregations who already know each other well, and there's already a rapport. But things like shared costs, like professional development, you know, the, someone's going to go to a professional conference, you know, which is the are the two congregations splitting the cost of that if the person needs equipment to do their job, how has that worked out? So these are things to think about? And you might decide, you know, what, we're gonna play it by ear, we're gonna try it for a couple months and see how it works. Or you might feel like, you know what, this is something where we want to have more specificity upfront. And I don't think there's a right and a wrong, I think it's more about the relationship. I think, I think we're in a time of change, and flexibility is going to be key no matter what you do. So kind of small experiments aren't a bad thing. Rev. Erica Barron 17:31 Can I just give a quick example? Yeah. So this was my the to two different employers with my exam situation when I was minister of two congregations at the same time. And additionally, one of the things that we had to coordinate was, the two congregations were about an hour apart from each other. So who like to travel time? Count his work time? whose work time? That was an additional sort of thing that we had to discuss? Jan Gartner 18:01 Yeah. Oh, that's a tricky one. And and the HR side of me would be like, yeah, how? How does that work? I don't have an easy answer for it. That's good. Thank you for that. Rev. Erica Barron 18:14 We ended up deciding that some, because they were had searched sort of together, that some of the travel time was considered was billed as time to, to each congregation, not all of it. So I wasn't compensated for all my travel time, but there was a portion of it that, like, came out of my hours and both. Jan Gartner 18:37 Right, right. Very good. What, I thought we could just take a minute, and here's where I'd love to hear from some of you as well, about remote work going forward. You know, I think this whole last year, we felt like, okay, we had to figure out this way of doing things and we had to figure it out quickly. We got everything going remotely. And at some point, we're going to be back in our buildings. And as has already been alluded to, we're probably going to still be doing a lot of things remotely. Whether it's online programming, or even just behind the scenes work, where there's things that happen in the congregation by staff, who who aren't, you know, they are on Sunday mornings are aren't needed directly in the programming itself. And so you know, what, of that could still be done remotely. I'm curious if anyone has come up with some really interesting things, good examples of a remote arrangement that they could see easily continuing or even one that isn't as intuitive that you're going to fake figure out how to make it work. Somebody really likes this person that they've been using for a certain time. service and they want to try to find a way to still have that person work well with their congregation. Rev. Phil Lund 20:08 Elaine's got her hand up there. So Elaine, and then Paula. Unknown Speaker 20:13 Hi, everybody. My congregation is in northeast Pennsylvania, the UUA's church of Athens and Sheshequin we're a tiny congregation with two church buildings. But this pandemic has been, as many of you, I'm sure have seen a blessing as well as a curse. We have a part a half time minister, a congregation about an hour away. She's She's also Minister for this congregation, but very part time as she consults with the third congregation, which is about an hour in a different direction. But through this pandemic, we've been doing shared virtual services with all three congregations. And in addition, we have regular attendees from South Carolina, Florida, California, all these different places. So that's really cool. And we already already are realizing that when it's safe to start getting back together in person, which we don't know what that will be, we'll still want to do things virtually because of the benefits. So there's that. I guess that's it for now. Thank you. Rev. Phil Lund 21:25 Thank you, Elaine, Paula. And then Mike. Unknown Speaker 21:30 Do you mean I'm Paula Vaughn and I'm with Wildflower Church in Austin, Texas, we've found we only have had a part time, less than 20 hours a week. And then person for quite a number of years. And during the pandemic. Because we don't own the property that we median, the physical property, we found that there may be is only once every two weeks currently, that there's any need to go into the office physically. And so there's probably going to be some level of while the office, the office manager is usually available three days a week, there's probably going to be maybe only one day a week, and possibly even one day, every two weeks, were there to physically go in and perform some duties there. Jan Gartner 22:33 So that feels like possibilities have been opened up. Unknown Speaker 22:39 Correct. And just in a more expanded thought will probably continue some kind of online team meetings or the availability for both in person and online simultaneously. Especially for people that don't like driving at night, or can't rush from work or school to to get into a meeting. Physically, it'll be, you know, probably have some of those expand our options in the actual church life functions as well. Jan Gartner 23:13 Yeah. Thank you. Rev. Phil Lund 23:16 Thank you, Paula. Mike. Unknown Speaker 23:18 Yes, I'm with Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Rock Tavern, New York, Orange County, New York, we're in the lower Hudson Valley. And we will be losing our minister in at the end of June, simply because we can't afford him. But I want to put in a word for him. He's an excellent minister, and does wonderful sermons. And if anybody would like to take him on for a Sunday or two, I think that'd be a good thing to do. And in fact, we are going to be looking to take on other ministers who don't have full time, pulpits. So I think it'd be a good idea if they put together a list of the ministers and the area that that minister could serve. To to let people like like our congregation, have a have a shot at a real Unitarian minister and send this instead of some of the some of the lesser lights that we've had to fall back on. Jan Gartner 24:28 Yeah, that's great. And I know that I saw someone else can probably speak better to this. I know there have been a couple of floating around of ministers making themselves available for remote preaching. That's a little different from what you're saying. Yeah. The structure for that exists yet. Unknown Speaker 24:50 Well, that is one of the boons of meeting remotely is that we've had we've had people attend for Many states away. I do a Toastmasters meeting on zoom. And it's an international. We have members from New New Delhi, or Caracas, Venezuela or wherever. So it's, it's really an opportunity to, to, to stretch our our message, I think a little bit and increase our membership. Yeah. Rev. Phil Lund 25:26 So we have Pamela and then Joyce and just let me know when you want to move along, Jan that we can stay here. Okay, so Pamela, Unknown Speaker 25:36 Okay, thank you. This is Pamela got from bash on islands Unitarian fellowship, the small fellowship on an island the uptick ferries to get on or off. We're near Seattle, but we don't have any minister and we we'd had one a few years ago, and then we couldn't afford them anymore. And so we, we are all Leyland. And so when the pandemic hit, and we haven't really used our building at all, we don't own the building, we rent the building, but we need to keep it so that it will be available when hopefully we start back maybe in the fall. So we pay rent on the building, even though we don't use it, the treasurer sometimes goes in, you know, once a month or something. But otherwise, we don't use the building. But what I was gonna say is we are late. And so we divided the congregation up into six teams to create sermons for all 40 sermons throughout our regular service year from September through June. And we have just been amazed what they've been able to do. And I really fear burnout, perhaps because, you know, I'm doing one of them. It's so exhausting trying to get the speed hire hire speakers, and get musicians in and lay out all of the music and the readings and all this other kind of stuff that goes into a lovely sermon. But they have been just wonderful. It's been people have been so impressed with what we've been able to do. And we've hired some Unitarian ministers to come in the speakers and things and it's, it's working great, but we can't continue it that way. And we do pay the congregation the closest congregation to a silver in Tacoma, Washington, we have them we pay a stipend to them just to be available, available to offer help if we need it and be a minister if we need a wedding or a funeral or something like that. And so we're getting by it's been difficult, but we we are having people like we have Former members that move to Arizona and so they they are just thrilled to get on every Sunday. And we have, again, people that are traveling, they can get on from zoom anyplace they love this. So if we go back, we're gonna have to have some kind of hybrid thing, we will have meetings in person plus a hybrid for the people that are, some of them are in nursing homes and really can't make it in. And so if that's been an advantage to do that, but it's been a crazy year, and we can't continue like this. And we thought, boy, it would be nice if we can share services with some other group because some of these services have been fabulous. And I thought it's a waste to just have them go one time. Ah, Jan Gartner 28:07 that's great. Pamela, thank you. It's really good. Yeah. Thanks. I think there was how about one more person? Rev. Phil Lund 28:15 Yes. Yeah, Joyce has her hand up there. So Joyce, one more person. Unknown Speaker 28:25 I was just gonna ask for those who don't have ministers, how you handle pastoral care. But that, you know, and small groups and some of the other things that ministers tend to do. We have three quarter minister, we're in Central Illinois. Jan Gartner 28:44 So I just I heard Pamela say that they contract with another congregation. That's not too far away for some sounds like sort of emergent emergency kinds of services and that kind of thing. So that's only one model. And I know, Minister, sometimes ministers when they go on sabbatical will have that kind of arrangement where there's someone on call, and there's some kind of worked out compensation for that. Rev. Phil Lund 29:13 And did you want to add something to that? Pamela? Yeah. Yeah, I Unknown Speaker 29:17 want to say that, you know, we're a lay led community, but we have a reformed because we don't have a minister we formed a caring committee, we call it and they made phone calls to every single person in the congregation before this, you know, at the beginning of this thing to find out, you know, what's going on? How are you but how can we help you in these personal phone calls. And then since then, we kind of have people keep track of a certain segment, you know, six or 10 people. And we've been sending out like personalized letters to like, each of us choose like eight people or something out of the congregation. We each write a personal letter to them to check on how they're doing and things and it's been kind of nice, but again, It's exhausting. And we we do miss a minister, we have won all of the absolutely necessary but it's it's kind of tricky, but we have this Leyland pastoral committee that tries to check up on people to help when needed. Unknown Speaker 30:12 And you know what i i've been talking to people about having their staff be equippers of the laity. So you bet out pretty well as a kind of self motivated under the circumstances, volunteers. And you know, it's not really sustainable. But put to the extent that what sometimes happens as you get a staff person, then it's like, oh, phew, now the staff person can take care of it, when what's really ideal is if the staff person can, to the extent possible, really, you know, rally the volunteer systems of the congregation so that you can really have that kind of great, robust way of helping the whole congregation without it all falling to the staff member. So I watched people the pendulum kind of swing from, oh, no, we have to do it all too. Oh, good. Now, the staff members doing it all. You know, there's a good meeting in the middle, I want to talk about human resources, which it's kind of what I do. And so you think this would be where I'm most comfortable. And I am not, I have to tell you, you know, our office is not not set up, where we can track how things work in all 50 states and numerous localities. So hiring across state lines, it's important to remember that most kinds of HR and labor things are based on where the employee resides. So if you're sharing with a congregation, in a different state, and they're also your employee, you're going to have to double check what the rules are, where that that person lives. And I'm just by no means an expert. And our office is pretty limited. But I mean, you can probably imagine there are different minimum wage, you know, minimum wages different in different states. So there are all kinds of things about, I don't know, you know, rest periods and how workers comp works. They're just, it's different everywhere. So that is one complication in hiring across state lines that I want to make sure you're aware of. And payroll, I learned some interesting things like some some payroll companies, recognizing that it's a little more work for them, will charge an extra fee. For instance, if you put someone on payroll that doesn't live in your state. So these are things little cautionary notes about if you're gonna work with an employee who lives elsewhere in a shared situation or not, it just might be a little more administratively complicated if they're not in your state. But I don't want to unduly discourage that. What I can speak to really well is about Benefits Administration, where we have seen some confusion, understandably very understandable confusion. So I'm going to talk here about the UUA benefits in particular, we offer a number of insurance plans, health, dental life, long term disability, and we also have a retirement plan. All of those things are multi employer plans, which means if someone's working in more than one place in our UUA system, if if both congregations are in the plan, or all five aggregations are in the plan, those hours get added up for that employee for the purposes of eligibility and premiums and that kind of thing. So if you have someone working for you 10 hours a week, they, for instance, they are not eligible for any of our ua insurances, they don't have enough hours a year to be eligible. But let's say they're working for you 10 hours a week, and they're working for another congregation 10 hours a week. Well, now they've met the eligibility threshold, assuming both of those congregations participate in our insurance plans. So is something to be aware of when you're, you're budgeting and planning that if there's somebody who's working at another congregation. It could be that there are benefits issues that are they're different from if they were only working for you. And for our insurance plans. We only invoice one congregation. So someone works in both Rochester and Buffalo. And I'm in Rochester. Unknown Speaker 35:08 We would beside decide between us the two congregations would decide and let's say my congregation in in Rochester decides to be the one that's invoiced. And then we'd work it out with buffalo how much they're going to pay us, you know. So that's one of those things that it's really important to coordinate. Because you have to figure out who's getting invoiced. And you know, how much makes sense for each congregation to contribute. Retirement is a little bit different. If you get someone who's eligible for retirement contributions, again, this is based on combined hours at participating congregations. Each congregation does their own thing. So if someone's working in Rochester, and they're working in Buffalo, we're going to our congregation in Rochester would submit the retirement contributions that we would normally be making for that person and the buffalo congregational remit the ones that they are obligated to make based on the person's pay in each of those congregations. So just, I know, you're not going to pick up every detail, and that's okay, we're here to help. But insurance, there's one invoiced congregation, for every employee, and for retirement, wherever somebody is working, those congregations remit on their own. So just, you know, a few little tips. And I put up a whole page of HR resources for virtual operations. It's, it's not by any means perfect, but it gives you some tips on how to deal with things that come up when people are working remotely, which will continue to be a thing we should talk about some sensitivities. And, you know, this has been an era and and maybe we're about to see things changes, as in person gathering ramps back up. But there have been staff reductions, there have been layoffs, there have been people who have lost hours, there have been positions that totally disappeared, there have been also times when this is kind of off of this topic a little bit. But, you know, people are being asked to fundamentally change what they do. And it's not what they're good at, they don't have the training, they're not getting the training, this would be a whole different webinar. But there are a whole bunch of really challenging things that are that have gone on with staff over the past year. And so I think there has been this fear, I know, there has been this fear that, oh, all of a sudden, one dare could run an RE program for five different congregations. You know, that means four DRE's are going to lose their jobs. And it's possible that that that could be the case. But there's also remember, we were talking about how really awesome you know, kind of career professionals would have a chance to share their gifts further. So it's, it's a complicated picture, right? Ideally, you know, there's a voluntary departure and you're looking at Gee, what I wonder or maybe an open a new need comes up something around tech, where you never had any but now we need someone to do this maybe we could share or there's some desire to really expand your capacity in your programming. So it's not at any current staff members expense. But you can imagine that there have been some awkward situations where some where someone's job goes away or gets reduced and then there might be an interest in hiring for from somewhere else somewhere on the Elsa staff member so please be aware of the optics I'm not saying they're hard and fast rules on this. I'd be interested I'm I'm sure that some of our regional staff have have dealt with these kinds of sensitivities any any words of wisdom here. Rev. Phil Lund 39:30 I think we're just go ahead. Rev. Sarah Schurr 39:32 What I've seen that's been a little awkward is if a part time minister at at congregation number one is then picked up also by congregation number two. And congregation number two always feels like she's really their minister. She doesn't love us as much. Jan Gartner 39:51 Oh, that's a different sensitivity. Yeah, that's a good one. Rev. Erica Barron 39:55 And it can also be hard to then leave one congregation without leaving the others. Though this, we never got there. But for a while it was looking like one of the two congregations I was serving might want to take me on more in a way that would make it impossible to do both. And that could get really awkward. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 40:17 Oh, these are great. Yeah. I mean, they're not great. But I'm saying, you know, as examples of just things that are, yeah, they're, they're awkward, and doesn't even just mean see, you know, be sensitive. And think things through and be honest, have good conversations, contact your regional life staff. Regional staff? Yeah. Rev. Phil Lund 40:44 Definitely. And, you know, you know, that's part of what we're here with Jan's here, too, if you've got some ideas, and you want to talk things over and, you know, think about what the possibilities might be, as well, as you know, what to be sensitive about. Jan Gartner 41:03 Yeah, that's, that's one of the things with the one technically could be a problem either way. But if you design a position that involves multiple congregations, and they're literally sharing a position, and you've come up with this awesome shared job description, and you've outlined it all, how it's going to work with the two congregations and, and then it's not working for one or one wants to bow out or the person doesn't like the way it's working. Yeah, those are, those are tricky to figure out. And I think that's kind of what Erica was getting at. But I can just imagine, I know there's some congregations I love that they're looking at, literally making a single position that that's for more than one. And I know of cases where, you know, maybe it's more viable in one of the places long term than for the other. And that's like, part of the reason they're combining, but it still might not work and what happens, you know, how's it gonna feel if it really, it only works in one of the two places? Yeah, yeah. All right. So let me stop sharing just for a minute, anything, anything else, we want to just kind of bounce around for a few minutes, and then I'll show you the congregational collaboration board. I got a note here that says it seems that the single invoicing practice and that's that's just how our how it works for our insurance plans, might cause the two congregations considering a shared employee to think in terms of the one employer model. And that's true, that could be a kind of an advantage to a single models, you don't have to figure out that that that space. Rev. Phil Lund 43:07 I think Paul'as got her hand up. Unknown Speaker 43:12 Yes, I was thinking of the people that are going across multiple congregations, we have hired, we have contracted with a chaplain, who already performed some services for other churches in the area, and ours, you know, as maybe eight or more hours a week, you know, if that kind of thing. But what concerned me is if we all add up our hours, is that when would we know that we need to start participating in benefits of this person? Jan Gartner 43:57 Such a great question. We have not come up with as you can imagine our offices constantly working with congregations on understanding the various rules of our benefit plans and things like that. But this is something we're even even further behind on is helping congregations figure out we don't necessarily know that someone just picked up more hours in another place and now they're newly eligible for something. And that's that's a struggle for us. So I would love to hear other people's I mean in the employee might not know they might not realize that Oh, now that I'm x hours in total, I get this, that. So, you know, we were all ears. Unknown Speaker 44:46 Well, we did draft a contract that was intentionally a periodic review of how much longer we need the set of services. Because not only did we need somebody To perform pastoral care, we also needed somebody to build up our own care team, and their skills and knowledge and understanding how to help with the care of the congregation. So we would have a point in time where we say, Okay, this may go on for another three months, but we're not looking at a full time, set number of hours. So we do have, you know, some built in assessment to make that decision. And I would suggest that anybody else that starts with somebody on a part time basis to look at some kind of periodic assessment and their contract. Jan Gartner 45:43 That's great. And then I would need to and then we'll, I'll I see Mike's hand up. And I will tell you that, you know, I have passed a few people along to our insurance plan sides to really kind of what's the rule on this, you know, this person hired in it, x hours, and it looks like they might be moving up their hours, but they're not sure yet. And they don't want to miss the enrollment window. You know, you don't want to realize a year down the line that they were they could have been in the long term disability plan, because there's a 60 day enrollment window. But if you start out at 10 hours, and you're not, and you're not eligible, yet, you know it, you get eligible for 750 hours a year, which is about 15 hours a week. And at what point Can you say, yes, it looks like this person is going to be scheduled for 750 hours a year. And I'm not the person that makes that decision, fortunately, but we know there's some gray area in some places. Yeah. And Mike, Unknown Speaker 46:48 thank you, Jan, is there. Does UUA have a list of available ministers met men or women who do not have a pulpit at the time? Or is there a freelance Unitarian possibility? Rev. Sarah Schurr 47:04 There is a preaching directory. There is here is the UUMA keeps it and it's available, everyone, Rev. Erica Barron 47:12 I put it in the chat. So if you go back through the chat, great, that's just for preaching. But and Rev. Phil Lund 47:18 and can we make sure that the links that have brought up in the chat get on the recorded site? I'll just one. Yeah. I think I saw another hand up. And David Kramer had an interesting question too, in the chat. Thanks, Beth. Yeah. So David, what was your question? Do you mind saying it out loud? Unknown Speaker 47:49 Sorry, the spacebar unmute was not working. So I'm wondering whether there are model contracts out there that we might consider if we're looking at sharing a staff person between two congregations. In particular, we're considering the one employer models such that one congregation would contract with the other for services provided by a staff person, but are there are there already existing models that we could we could steal from? Jan Gartner 48:22 Oh, and I want to steal from yours, anybody who's already got this worked out, you know, spent a lot of time working on the full time, you know, kind of the classic, you know, one church, one full time minister, you know, we're still tweaking our, our model agreement language for that situation. And we keep talking about the need to do some, you know, for part time and contract ministry, and, you know, assistant ministers, and, you know, we, we've had trouble making the bandwidth to do that. But I can imagine, you know, maybe there are just a handful of tips, you know, rather than trying to put together a whole model, there might be and hopefully that's some of what we're talking about tonight. Here are some things to pay attention to, if you're going to be, you know, sharing a staff member or sharing a minister with another congregation. And I'm not going to promise any kind of timeline for getting something official, but certainly anyone who has something that's working well or you think, aren't we clever? We figured out a cool thing to do with this, you know, please send them to me because I do hold on to things like that. And sometimes I take I scrub them and share them as templates for others. Unknown Speaker 49:47 Just so you know, a little more we are we have figured out the money. And we're looking at sharing a dare and and we figured out the proportionality of the money, given the sighs of the enrollment of our of our prospective students. But more, what we need to do now is to work out lines of authority, reporting responsibilities, how we communicate between each other so that we avoid the situation where one partner is happy and the other one's not. So if anybody has any existing situations like that, I sure love to hear from you and know how it is that you've worked out that kind of an agreement with another congregation. Rev. Phil Lund 50:36 So if you want to put your email in the chat, David, you know. Thank you. And Beverly, I see, I see you had your hand up a couple times. Beverly, you have something. Unknown Speaker 50:49 Now, unmute. So we tried two years ago to hire one Minister for two congregations. We were about 120. They were about six day. The two prompts so we David, we do have some things we can share with you, we were not successful. And the two reasons we weren't successful is one we were about an hour apart. And most of the ministers that we interviewed thought that that was too far distance, even though we found them places to buy in between the two. The other thing is, they were looking for a full time job, but a full time job with one congregation could offer them more benefits than two part time congregations could. So they all ended up. There are not as many people looking for ministries right now. Or at least there weren't two years ago. So they all ended up with one congregation, that wonderful time minister. So we were not successful. But we did work on some of those plans, and I can share whatever we have. I think, Jan Gartner 52:00 Beverly, where are you? Unknown Speaker 52:02 Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Newark, Delaware. Jan Gartner 52:06 Yeah, right. Okay, great. Unknown Speaker 52:08 And the other thing you said about benefits is I've been immersed in this because in 2017, when we didn't have any staff, we signed one of those benefit letters for retirement a certain amount of retirement for part time employees. But it got forgotten and put in a drawer somewhere which we're trying to rectify. And all of a sudden, we had two people that were eligible, and we hadn't done anything about it. So it's kind of good if you sign those kinds of agreements that people know where they are. And our minister had worked at our part time minister right now I've worked at four other churches. I don't know if this is true, like of the medical benefits. But for retirement, the other congregations he worked for, had chosen not to offer that benefit, no matter how many, and some of them, he had worked full time. So it's not something like when you have a certain number of hours you have to do, but it's kind of it the congregation wants to. Jan Gartner 53:10 Yeah, yeah. That's Well, thanks, Beverly, for sharing that. And I know we've worked with many congregations, on on compliance issues. And so I think, technically, if they're in our plans, should be the same for the employee, whether they have, you know, 30 hours at one congregation or 10 hours each at different ones. But inevitably, probably that larger congregation that single one is more accustomed to offering benefits and it keeping track of what the three different smaller congregations need to do to be compliant with the rules and all that stuff is is definitely a little more complicated, isn't it? I want to move on and show you our congregational collaboration. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I have to find it. Here it is. Alright, are you seeing? Rev. Phil Lund 54:15 Yep, I can see it. Jan Gartner 54:17 Okay, great. So this is something that we came up with in the fall it hasn't. I don't think anyone's used it yet. It's it got made, I don't know maybe right before the holidays or something. And we want to make sure people know about we've advertised it a little bit. But this is meant for either. If you're a congregation that's that's seeking a staff member and thinking, wow, maybe sharing would be a great deal for us and we could tag on with another congregation that already has someone doing this work. And it's also meant if you have someone to offer, so if you have it and I think it'll work best if people use it in both places. So someone who has a part time staff member who would love to pick up some more, more time and share their gifts more broadly. And so it doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles, I asked our IT folks to keep it simple. And then we would learn if if something more is needed as people begin to use it. So if you go to use it, and you discover, you know, it doesn't tell me something or other, you know, let us know. And we can make adjustments to it. So you go into the congregational collaboration board. And even I've gotten a little mixed up because I'm an authorized user. Most of it, you can see even if you're not signed in, but if you're signed in, it allows you to actually create your own to post your own thing. So there are a couple different levels of permissions. So keeping in mind that you'll be able to see some things but not everything. I think you'll be able, for instance, we are in the offering staff, there's a here I'll show you see, there's both seeking and offering. So if we go into offering, here's my sample position that I posted, and I think even if you're not signed in, don't have a password or anything, you can open it up and look at it and see that this fictitious congregation is offering a membership staff person. All right. Rev. Phil Lund 56:34 And, Jan, can you make it just a little bit? Can you increase the size on that? Jan Gartner 56:39 Yeah, I hope so. Rev. Phil Lund 56:41 Yeah, there you go. Okay, thank you, thank you. Jan Gartner 56:43 Um, so this person is available. at roughly quarter time, remote work is possible. And then you have a chance to say, you know, so I put we have a protect a terrific part time membership professional, would be glad to make them available to other congregations. So they can pick up some additional time. They do really great membership classes, they follow up with our guests, help newer members and friends get connected to congregational activities, can you use support like this? Contact me, we might even be able to do some joint membership classes. So this is someone who's just thinking creatively. And of course, it was me because I posted it, but I'll bet you could write something just as intriguing. Okay, and then I put in some fake, this is my actual email. But, you know, you put in some contact info and, and there you go. So I said to Phil, maybe we could kind of do a little Madlib here and start one. So you can just see that it's that? How to Make Your Own? Should we do that? Rev. Phil Lund 57:59 Sure. Jan Gartner 58:00 All right. Let's start a new one. So I clicked on we are offering staff and seeking staff looks pretty much the same. But let's do offering Phil, what what kind of staff member and feel free to say other we didn't give a million choices here. And I know that tech and bookkeeping, and there are other things that are getting shared. What do you want to write about today? Rev. Phil Lund 58:25 Well, let's go with religious education since we've talked a little bit about that. Jan Gartner 58:29 Okay. And so this person's official title is Feel free to drop in other regional staff. Rev. Phil Lund 58:48 Do we say our RE coordinator, perhaps, sir, something like that? Jan Gartner 58:55 Yeah. Rev. Phil Lund 58:57 Yeah. All right. Are you coordinator director? Yeah. Jan Gartner 59:01 Yeah. Okay. So and we have to say whether we're posting as a percent or hours, so maybe fill this person is already working for you. 15 hours a week and doesn't necessarily want to be full time. But maybe, you know, what do you think up up to 15 or 20 hours a week? You know, yeah, are 10 to 15? Something like 10 to 15? Rev. Phil Lund 59:31 Yeah. Unknown Speaker 59:33 Oh, let's see, somebody had already picked this one, up to 10 hours a week. Let's say they're available. So this would be perfect for a small congregation doesn't have a lot of kids want some more robust programming than they've been able to offer on their own. Maybe, maybe some, as we move back to more in person gathering, maybe someone to help coordinate the volunteers on the ground wouldn't necessarily Be there on Sundays are not necessarily every Sunday, but could really help put together a really strong program. So it was remote possible for this person. What do you think? Rev. Sarah Schurr 1:00:13 I think? Some mostly, but how limited on personnel on site hours? What do you think? Unknown Speaker 1:00:20 Okay, and so let's say yes. And then we can kind of, say something somewhere that we. Jan Gartner 1:00:31 So this is we're offering somebody, remote work would be possible, but there might be some, you have to think this through because we're offering so they're already working on Sundays, maybe they're they're required on site at your congregation. Rev. Phil Lund 1:00:52 Maybe they, maybe they could do things like teacher training or things like that on site at the other congregation or share it to it together. So. But I think if if, if you open up that possibility, you're kind of saying you're looking for somebody that's reasonably close by, you know, it kind of just determines what, you know, what, who would be eligible for who might be interested in a position like that? Jan Gartner 1:01:16 Yeah. So thinking about a congregation, reasonably close to us. And this was somewhere in Tennessee. So that, you know, some on site would be possible. Unknown Speaker 1:01:44 What do you think? What's this person good at? What might you want to lift up that this person could help with? You talked about teacher trainings, Rev. Phil Lund 1:01:53 a curriculum, curricula curation, or something like that? Jan Gartner 1:01:58 Yeah. I like that. Are they good? Have they been, you know, maybe they've been doing some really cool, like recorded time for all ages that could could be used, you know, great. Time for all ages, great time for all ages. So you see what I'm doing here, you know, you just think of what would make this interesting to somebody else to take a look at. And then you put your contact information, you can see here, I'm not sure if I have to put in a real email to get it to accept it. We will see. And then optional notes here. So you can go ahead and say anything like don't call me at midnight, or whatever you want. And so if I save it, let's see if it shows up. Yeah, there we go. There's our offering religious education, we just created it. 3/18 at 8:07pm. Eastern. All right. And then if you go into seeking, it's very, very similar. And this one might be more intuitive, you know what you're looking for? And you can write that out. All right. So that's that. I mean, I would encourage you to try it. If you you're thinking because we know that congregations might not just automatically find each other. Sometimes it happens. But there are probably many more congregations thinking about possibilities for sharing staff than have actually figured out how to put out feelers and Rev. Phil Lund 1:03:52 so what I'm curious about, we had in the chat going a little bit was talking about bookkeeper eating and things like that. And I just, you know, I'm just curious about, you know, you said you put some stuff in into the collaboration board, just, you know, Minister, religious educator, you know, some some membership, typical kind of things, but, as I said earlier, so many more opportunities seem to have come up over the last year. And I'm just wondering what kind of things folks might be thinking of, I really do think bookkeeping may be one that, you know, especially in the same state where, you know, the might be easier just to understand the state laws and everything but, you know, folks have other ideas about what could be some shared positions these days. Virtual music, choir director, yes. Jan Gartner 1:04:48 Yeah. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 1:04:52 One of the resources I have have not been able to make time for yet is people are asking about pricing. For some of these interesting things, like producing a virtual choir piece, and one of the things I found out is, you know, like, you know, if your choir director already knows how to do it, you know, maybe they do it and who knows how long it takes. But if you go looking for someone to like, contract with to put together this thing for you, it's a couple 1000 bucks, it could be 2000, 3000, $4,000 for one piece. So there's got to be a way to make that more, because that's been kind of an exciting thing for people. So we got to figure out a way to, to share skills so that that can happen. Rev. Erica Barron 1:05:42 Yeah, and with the choir pieces, specifically, it seems like one way to potentially make it a little bit more accessible financially would be that the two congregations or more that are sharing the service are also making one video of all, all their choirs. So instead of the person producing like three or four different videos, they're using three or four different choirs to produce one video, and that would probably make it a little easier. Jan Gartner 1:06:11 office manager, beware different administrative systems with between Yes. Oh, yeah. So that might be go, that might go, you know, if you post you might be saying our congregation uses breeze. You know, you know. Rev. Phil Lund 1:06:31 And, Mary, you mentioned copyright issues. And that's always an issue for musicians and stuff like that. So that would be part of if you were hiring somebody to do virtual music that you might say, you know, make sure all copyrights are clear for whatever performances you do, or things like that as part of the job description. Unknown Speaker 1:06:51 Oh, you know what I meant to say about that collaboration board. And I said something about signing in, it's separate. Some of you probably have a uua.org login already. It's a separate system, I don't think it's hard to sign up, especially if we already have you listed. You know, if you're already a congregational president, or treasurer, we can have you in our system somewhere, I think you pretty much just get automatic access, you just click it, you go to the page, and you say, I need to sign up without you worst case, you'll have to go through some very small system of proving who you are, because I guess we don't just want random people accessing this page. But once but even without that, you should be able to see the details of things that other people have posted. I think that contact information, you have to have some kind of sign in for. So we don't have people's if you post a position, your private information isn't out there for the entire world. So there are a couple different levels, the level you need to see people's contact information and post your own listing. I'm not 100% clear on that. But other people explained it to me. So I know it's a thing. Unknown Speaker 1:08:24 Ah, yeah, we have a question about work for hire. And that's, that's another whole webinar, right? Like who's an employee and who's an independent contractor, and that they're probably they're always gray areas, but most people who work in your congregation should be treated as employees. And I know, there are probably a few more exceptions to that now than there have been. Gosh, California, thank you, Sarah. California Labor Law, and who's an employee and who are you legally allowed to consider an independent contractor? If we it's gotten very complicated in California, and that means Guess what? It's going to be complicated everywhere else soon. Unknown Speaker 1:09:23 I worked for a back when our the Central East region was district. I work for the Ohio Meadville District for a year and it was it was mainly small congregations and there were some that were pretty close together. And I, you know, it would have been a whole different ballgame. I think working with those congregations today than it was at that time. It's pretty interesting to think about. Rev. Sarah Schurr 1:09:51 I want to hold up just the thing about distance like all those carnations were an hour apart or two hours apart. When I was shared between two different congregations, they were a two hour plane ride apart. And right now I'm, I'm in relationship with a, with a minister that a mentoring relationship where one of their congregations is in the state of Washington and the other is in the state of Florida. That's even more so. So I think that, that if you expect your minister to live in your city with you and to see them at the grocery store, then that's one thing. But if you expect your minister to be someone who comes in for a week, works intensively with them with you, and then leaves for a little while, and then comes back in works intensively and then leaves for a little while, then, then how it doesn't matter how far apart you are, or if everything is remote, and you know that you have access to that minister on Thursdays and Tuesdays, and it's all remote, then the distance doesn't have to be a factor. It just has to do with I think congregation expectations and culture. Rev. Erica Barron 1:11:03 Yeah, and I think that in the like, in well, certainly right now, when everything's online. But, um, as we come out of this, I think it's possible that we might have more comfort with doing things like board meetings, or adult exploration classes, or whatever online, which would make it easier, so that if you, your minister only had to be physically present a lot less of the time for a lot less of the things like maybe only when they were preaching or, like they didn't pastoral care on particular, days, like the day after their preaching or something, it might be easier, because they don't have to be there as much. And you're all more used to that. But yeah, this was the old model of circuit writing preachers is, you know, they would ride into town for a week and then ride on to the next, you know, congregation and it was a circuit, like I just wrote around. So yeah, Rev. Sarah Schurr 1:11:53 I just flew, that's all. Unknown Speaker 1:11:56 Yeah, hey, I want to Mary asked a good question. Someone needs a new computer, I posted an article on my newsletter today about Bring Your Own Device policies. And this is one of those areas that it's changed a lot in the past year, all of a sudden, someone's working for home, well, I already have a printer, or you know, but who's gonna pay for that, whatever. And you can put together policies about it, you can, you can always the church can always pay for something and own it, right. So you can always buy a computer. And it is, even if it's bought with professional expense, money, friends, the congregation still owns it, okay. So even if it's bought with professional expense money, however, when that person leaves employment, or wants to take over ownership of it, for some reason, they can buy it from the congregation at its current value. So that's one way to do it. You could also have a policy where you do some, some kind of reimbursement, like, you know, everyone, knowing that people have things like printers and computers that were out every few years, you know, you could put a policy in place where you'll give everybody a certain amount of money, you know, with documentation, they can submit for reimbursement up to x $100 a year for health, you know, assuming like, it's a thing that they're probably going to use 80% for their own stuff, but they're also going to use it for work, say, right, but then you get into what kind of assumptions are you making? What about people who wouldn't ordinarily have that thing at home? You know, there are a lot of equity issues, you always want to make sure those policies are working well for the people who really need them the most. Rev. Phil Lund 1:13:52 And it's, I think that more of a more of the kind of positions I'm thinking of do require, you know, technology, I mean, the musician thing we just talked about, you know, putting together videos of choirs and things like that, that takes a lot of you know, computing, but the social media kind of people, the tech people, bookkeepers, you know, would all be using equipment like that. So that's a very good question about them. And and I see Erica, put the link to your thing you just mentioned. Oh, yeah. Jan, so thank you. Jan Gartner 1:14:25 My slides before it's lit the slides too. Yeah. If you're not on our monthly newsletter list, I encourage you to get out all kinds of fun stuff about staffing taxes, benefits. So Rev. Phil Lund 1:14:39 how would they get on that list? Jan? Jan Gartner 1:14:41 Um, you can just Yeah, what's the best way to do it? Unknown Speaker 1:14:48 I should if you click on this link, it's at the bottom of the newsletter. Jan Gartner 1:14:52 Okay. Okay. Unknown Speaker 1:14:53 Good. Thank you. Rev. Phil Lund 1:14:54 Alright, so the the link to chance latest newsletter. Rev. Sarah Schurr 1:15:01 Erica, just put the survey put the link itself. Okay. Thank you. Jan Gartner 1:15:05 That's great. I can put that. I'll put that on what slides? Rev. Phil Lund 1:15:10 Yeah. That's a great resource. Thank you for bringing that up to you. Unknown Speaker 1:15:17 very welcome. Rev. Phil Lund 1:15:19 Well, we're about 8:20. After. Jan, you've shared a lot. Appreciate it. Jan Gartner 1:15:25 Yeah, you're very welcome. I'm just seeing what else did I say? Rev. Phil Lund 1:15:28 I will see if we have another question, too. But Rev. Erica Barron 1:15:32 yeah, there was just a question about supervision. Rev. Phil Lund 1:15:34 Yeah, good question about supervision. And small congregation. Jan Gartner 1:15:38 Here's the resource thing. And I will, I will add a link to my newsletter sign up. That's awesome. And questions, and thank you. Unknown Speaker 1:15:46 Thank you. Rev. Phil Lund 1:15:48 Sharing now, super staff supervision. Yeah. Jan Gartner 1:15:55 Are we talking about a staff a congregation that's small enough that it doesn't feel appropriate to saddle the minister with it? Or there isn't a minister? That kind of thing? Unknown Speaker 1:16:10 No, Minister? Rev. Phil Lund 1:16:11 Yeah, no, Minister? That's what I would imagine. Yeah. Jan Gartner 1:16:14 Yeah. You know, what I've often recommended, and I'd be interested in hearing from the regional staff, because we haven't I haven't talked with all of you about that, is make that somebody's job. You know, it's a volunteer role for someone who would be good at that. You know, it doesn't have to be a board member, it can literally be, you know, an important, you know, I'm thinking about, like, the stewardship chair, you know, you choose someone who does that particular thing is in good communication with the board. And so I I view it kind of like that. Rev. Phil Lund 1:16:54 So, if they've never had staff before, something like a Personnel Committee, but with somebody who really has some experience with that, if you can find someone like that your Congress, yeah, Jan Gartner 1:17:06 please don't have someone report to a committee that just that can be just like, not work very well. So I would even if you say it's the, like, my view on personnel committees is that generally they stay out of supervision, you know, they can rate work on researching benefits and creating, bring your own device policies and that kind of thing that apply to all staff. But if they start kind of getting too tangled up in individual employment, issues, that can be problematic. And it would be better to have an assigned person that's a support person for individual staff checks in how are you doing with your hours? Is there anything you need? You know, this seems to be not going so well, for you. How can we help you Rev. Phil Lund 1:18:01 love him? Yeah. Yeah, like the chair of the committee, Robert, question, something like that. Yes. Somebody who's designated to be the supervisor, one person. It couldn't Jan Gartner 1:18:12 be the chair. I think sometimes what happens though, is if it's assigned to the chair of the Personnel Committee, then the personnel committee's work becomes mixed up with supervision. And that's something I tend to try to steer people away from. Rev. Phil Lund 1:18:28 Yeah. And Paula has a question, would that person be on the board? I think they could be or maybe not, it depends on what the governance would be like in your congregation. But they would need to keep the board, keep the board in touch with what's going on with the personnel. Yeah. These are great questions. And I hope you got some, it looks like you got some ideas of things to add Jan to things that you've got. Um, so what I'd like to do is I just told you, I was going to remind you about a thank you, Jan. First, let me just say that thank you so very much. I do think this is super important for small congregations these days is to really think about what sharing staff would look like. So this is so helpful. And as I mentioned earlier, we have one more of these webinars coming up next month, sharing youth programming in smaller congregations. And I will put a link for that. So you can click on it from the chat, and also we have a recording of the webinar we did last month on sharing worship that is available online too, so I'm going to put the links in for both those in the chat so you'll have them Oh, here we go. I had them a moment ago and they disappeared. Now they're back. Now they still disappeared. So I'm going to still work on that. Um, so all right, anyone else from our congregational life staff will make sure those links are in the, the when we have the recording, so you can find them there, but anybody else from our congregation life staff anything before we close? Oh, they're back. I'm sorry, I'm working with two different devices and things are coming and going. So here we go. Chat. Alright, here is the link for the recording to the sharing worship. And hope they're still just all on the sharing worship. I'll get to the youth program. The other ones a youth program. Okay. Anybody else though, from our congregational life staff have anything to add tonight? Right, right. Here's the other link then. Last thing. Here we go. So this is the link to the upcoming sharing youth programming in small congregation. Sorry. So that's all the links we wanted. Okay, well, Jan, again, thank you so very much. This is like so important. And I love the collaboration board and I hope people start to use it and find it useful for them. Jan Gartner 1:21:40 This has been great, Phil, thanks for inviting me. Rev. Phil Lund 1:21:43 It's good to have you. And thank you Beth for doing the recording for us and getting that up. And it's good to see everyone and hope we will see you at an upcoming webinar. Transcribed by https://otter.ai