Rashid Shaikh 0:05 So I Rashid Shaikh. I'm a member member of the UUA church in the First Parish of God, First Parish in Cambridge. Unitar... Unitarian Universalist, I cannot say the name of my church. I have been a UUA for about 25 years and I have been a member of my current choice for the last 12. I have played a number of leadership roles. I have been on the board and I have been a board chair and sort of a number of committees. Currently, I'm a member of our racial equity team, as well as of our working group. Thank you. Shannon Lang 0:41 And Hello, my name is Shannon Lang, and I'm a member of the Unitarian Church in Evanston, Illinois. And I'm a member of the racial equity action leadership team, a member of our committee on shared ministry, a member, we're assembling a Anti Racism Task Force. and a variety of other kinds of committees that I'm volunteering here and there as well. And been a member for about four or five years. Paula Cole Jones 1:16 Leon Leon Spencer, it looks like this screen is frozen, so we'll come back to him. Leon Spencer 1:31 I'm Here. Paula Cole Jones 1:32 Oh, okay. Yeah. Leon Spencer 1:35 I wasn't sure you were saying Leon. I'm Leon Spencer. And I had a chance to refigure actually how long I've been a Unitarian Universalist. My first exposure was in 64, actually, and I took a break. And pretty close to 50 years, I guess. I'm a member of the Statesboro, Georgia Unitarian Universalist Fellowship. I'm so used to saying that I'm really a friend of at the moment, because I'm not affiliated with the congregation at this time, but certainly I'm rooted in Statesboro and active but I'm really changed my status to a friend. Um, I've been active. Oh, my gosh, in racial justice issues. All my Unitarian Universalist life. But in 84, with Black Concerns Working Group, and every racial justice committee that I can think of up to this year, I was on one. And I'm a Jubilee trainer. I still love and believe in that work. And I've been trying to get here to this group that Paula keeps me informed. And we talk about so I know you surprised. I'm here. I am. I'm glad to be here. I really am. Paula Cole Jones 3:30 Thank you for the spotlight me so that I come into the space. Thank you. Thank you. Allison? Allison Jacobs 3:41 Can you hear me? Yes. Yeah. My name is Allison Jacobs. I'm currently at the First Unitarian Church of Honolulu where I've been a member for about four or five years ever since I came back to Honolulu for the second time. My I'm a second generation UU from New Haven, Connecticut. I see some people from my home congregation here. I believe Becky and Jackie. Nice to be on with you. Um, my parents were instrumental in helping to found the New Haven, the USNH - Unitarian Society of New Haven. And I'm currently on the board as a vice president, here in Hawaii and I work with the co- facilitator along with Jill Rabinov off in our ADORE program and we have a very strong eighth prinicple Task Force going here as well. And hello, glad to see you outside of Jubilee. Paula Cole Jones 5:04 Lia Lia Nagase 5:06 Hi, my name is Lia Nagase and I am a member at First Unitarian Portland. I've been a member here for about two and a half years and, a UU for, I think that I think it's five and a half years. And I am on the eighth principle team at our church and founded and co facilitate our BIPOC group. And I'm also the chair of the ministerial search committee. And so my resume is not as big as Leon's yet but with time and even though our search is on hold somewhat with Reverend Bill staying for another year, but we're still we're still meeting and still active. Glad to be here. Paula Cole Jones 5:57 Thank you very much, Bruce. Will you spotlight Doreion Colter please. Bruce Pollack-Johnson 6:07 Who is that? Paula Cole Jones 6:08 Doreion Colter story and introduces himself then we will Bruce Pollack-Johnson 6:19 For some reason, Doreion Paula Cole Jones 6:26 His name is on my screen. Bruce Pollack-Johnson 6:28 Okay. It was lower than Oh, now it's up. Okay, good. Paula Cole Jones 6:32 Okay, good. Hi, Doreion, welcome. Doreion Colter 6:37 Yes, welcome. I'm glad to be here. I'm Doreion Colter from First Unitarian Church of Baltimore. And my congregation has adopted the eighth principle, and is working very hard to try and get it into their hearts and minds. Yes. Paula Cole Jones 7:01 Um, so can you tell us how long you've been Unitarian Universalist? And how long? Doreion Colter 7:06 I've been a Unitarian Universlaist for 16 years now? Paula Cole Jones 7:15 And what roles have you played in your congregation, Doreion Colter 7:17 Oh the roles are played in my congregation. I've been on every committee in the congregation. been on the board. I've been vice president. I've been president and affiliate minister. And so I'm in almost in any and every role. In our congregation, I have been here. I'm only in a few at the point at this point, which is the governance Task Force. I was on the eighth principal Task Force. Since I'm an affiliate minister, I just do those things that are really, really necessary and need my expertise. Paula Cole Jones 8:05 Thank you. And you also are very instrumental in the worship services. I appreciated your presence when I was there. Doreion Colter 8:13 Well, yes. I'll be preaching on the 24th of this month. Paula Cole Jones 8:18 Yes. Great. Doreion Colter 8:20 I'll be your worship service. So that's what that's where I'm working at now. My worship, supporting the minister. Paula Cole Jones 8:30 Thank you. Thank you. So my first main question, because there, you know how many of us we may not need a lot of questions. And as we have moved forward with the eighth principle learning community, and first let me pause and say thanks to everyone who has come on tonight, and for your careful listening, you know, creating the space for the BIPOC community to speak. We have worked with a number of different groups and including congregations that, you know, as they've adopted the eighth principle we've brought them in to share their experience. We had the religious educators, we had five religious educators come in and talk to us about what it's like to do RE and the eighth principle. We had a session on climate justice. We had four ministers last month in December. And all three of those last links I mentioned, are available, if any of you would like to go back to listen to them, or to share them with your congregations. So as we've been doing this, I thought to myself, well, it really is time for us to hear from the BIPOC community if you all don't mind. I just want to say people of color community and because it's It's, it's important. And we may, we may have a different experience of our congregations, we may have a different experience around the eighth principle. And the you know, just how it proceeds in our congregations, what it might mean for us in terms of our vision of the future. So that's, that's what I'd like to hear. And Bruce Pollack-Johnson 10:27 just before we launch into, we probably have almost everybody here who's going to be here, if anybody knows that their congregation is planning to take some kind of a vote to adopt the eighth principles, especially in the coming six months or so. If you could put that in the chat the congregation and the likely date, that would be really helpful for us to know. what's what's brewing. Thanks. Yeah, Paula Cole Jones 10:51 we're keeping a running list. Oh, okay. So the first question to you is, what difference does it make to you, as a member of a congregation or friend of a congregation, that your congregation is engaged in the work of adopting the eighth principle first. So some of you have already adopted, some are in process, and some may be in congregations that have decided not to? What difference does that make to you? And I can, I'll call on you if you want. And let me do that. So we can kind of keep it rolling. And if you're, if you're not quite ready, you can just say pass. Okay. So that way, we'll just keep the conversation moving. Um, Allison, let me call on you. You are your congregation was the second one. So what difference did it make? Bruce Pollack-Johnson 12:00 Just muted Allison. Allison, you're muted. Like, Paula Cole Jones 12:06 she might be frozen. Allison's calling him from Hawaii. Bruce Pollack-Johnson 12:11 Okay, okay. Gotcha. Allison Jacobs 12:14 Um, what difference does it make? Well, it makes a huge difference. Um, I think that being in a congregation that is honest and open about issues regarding white privilege, and needing to, to combat that, and racism is makes it more real to me in terms of dealing with all the other principles, because if we're not going to deal with the eighth principle, then, you know, everything else that you tell me about the seventh principle, you know, it's really not not ringing true to me. I mean, to me, that's just something that has to be dealt with. And I even think about, you know, if I can, if I would consider moving from Hawaii, which I really am not doing at the moment. But if, you know, I was gonna go someplace else and try to find another UU congregation. I would be looking for one that had the eighth principle, because otherwise, it's just, it's too hard. I mean, it's, it's too, it's too hard for me to go and participate in that people. Let me put it like this being around in a congregation, where there's an eighth principle means that I'm around like minded people, and I can be more comfortable and feel like we're all working on issues that involve that include everybody, you know, and it's something that happens, you know, all day, every day, you know, 24, seven, throughout the year, it's not just on Black History Month. Paula Cole Jones 14:06 Thank you, Alison. How about you, Dorian, your your congregation has voted what differences. Doreion Colter 14:13 For me. The main difference it made for me is that I knew intuitively that I was very well loved in my congregation. But for them to adopt, the eighth principle was a tangible expression of that love. It gave they gave me a stick, crack them across the head because it means Now I can hold them accountable for doing the work of the eighth principle. And the fact that not only did they adopt the eighth principle, but began immediately to doing the work of the eighth principle, and harnessing changes in the congregation in the, in the attitudes and in the minds of members of the congregation, it has given me a brand new congregation that I feel a part of, and it's my congregation. And we can work through our differences. So it's been a mercy to me. Paula Cole Jones 15:53 Thank you, Dorian, thank you so much for that. Um, so I know the the three that are in process, are she, Shannon and Lia? Shannon, how about you? Shannon Lang 16:12 For me, it is the difference between just kind of resting on our laurels and, and actually taking action. I think some of the reasons why I've heard that certain congregations have not adopted it is that they feel that the other principles cover it. But it doesn't. It absolutely does not cover it. Because that eight principle is about action. It's about dismantling racism, that takes action. And it talks about doing it within the institution. And that's our institution. And so it's about doing the work that needs to be done, that you think you're doing. But you're not really doing. And so by you adopting this principle, actually shows that you really do love and care about the community. So you say that you want more people of color to come that you don't understand why we're not there. That you, you want us there, you don't understand why we used to be there and we're not there anymore. Well, if you are not adopting this principle, or you're voting on this principle, or voting against it, then I don't like I have no I cannot comprehend why congregations have voted against this principle. That to me is going against every single one of the other principles. That's that's not love. This is this is action. To me. When I found out that our congregation had that we have to kind of even have this whole long discussion. And that's long plan about it. I literally am like, why do we even have to talk about it? It should just be like, we talked about it one Sunday, and everybody says Yes. Paula Cole Jones 18:30 All right, good. Okay. Thank you, Lia. Lia Nagase 18:38 I think it's twofold. One is I love that Doreian mentioned the word accountable. And, Paula, I know in your your presentation, you talk about accountability. And I also know that that word tends to turn people off. And I think that that's, that says something, the fact that that word is so alarming to people, I hope that we all hold each other accountable. For the eighth principle and the other principles, I want that for myself, I want others to hold me accountable. I want to hold myself accountable. So to me, this gives a framework. It gives a framework to talk about things explicitly, instead of letting things happen, and keeping them quiet, and keeping them having people of color talking about it in our groups, and then the I don't know what happens in other groups, but you know, keeping I think that it, it gives us permission to really call it out. So when, when we see when we experience these parts of white supremacy culture that come out, in our meetings, in our groups, in our services, that we can actually say hey, this is happening, remember the eighth principle, and we can hold each other to that. So that's one piece. And then the other piece for me personally, is that it gives me hope that we will truly be a multicultural faith. And that, you know, I get so much when I go to our DRUUMM events, and I've only been virtually, because I didn't know I spent three years in a small fellowship, and didn't know about DRUUMM, was never told. And so I sat there and experience services where it was, we white people need to do this, and we white people need to do that. And sometimes not even not enough, but I would go, Am I invisible? what's fair? I, that's not me, you're talking to a group and that's not including me, and didn't even know that, that there was such thing as DRUUM. So when I did and I finally got to attend. I was like, Yes, this is this is it, you know, I felt at home. And I do feel at home, because and especially being a mixed race person. I know what, what it means to bring different cultures together, whether it's musically, spiritually, beliefs, wise, all of those things. So there's a hope for me, that we really are building the beloved multicultural community and I know how good that's gonna be for everyone. Paula Cole Jones 21:34 Thank you, Lia. So DRUUM is D R UU M M. Diverse and Revolutionary Unitarian Universalist Multicultural Ministries. And it's been around for a while you can look it up on the internet, but it's, it's the community of people of color. We also BIPOC, I'm sorry, Black, Indigenous and People of Color. And we also have BLUU, B L U U, which is Black Lives of Unitarian Universalist. Okay, thank you. Rashid. Bruce Pollack-Johnson 22:18 You're muted Rashid. Rashid Shaikh 22:22 Sorry. Sorry. Thank you. So this is really, you know, exciting work. I mean, at First Parish in Cambridge, we have been working on racial justice issues for quite a long time for at least 10 or 12 years. And the work has, has gradually increased, it has led to a lot of awareness, and a lot of actions on the part of the congregation. We have not in Jubilee, but we have been doing we have had, we have gone through a couple of rounds of Beloved Conversations, and people have been doing other things. But I think it is fair to say that it's not totally uniform, that thinking about about about diversity is not totally uniform. We do without to what our congregation and what what working on the eighth principle, we have not adopted it yet. , we plan to do it in June. I think if you put it up for for a vote right now, we have no doubt that we would have the vote to to adopt it. But we are kind of more interested in a process, in a process where the congregation and all the committees and all the all the teams become much more aware of what we're talking about. And they make a commitment to working on dismantling racism, and other forms of oppression. And that this work goes further. And the second part that a couple of the panelists have said, iss about accountability. And, and, and I think maybe it's just me, but I think the accountability concept is is a difficult one, to put your arms around. And I think understanding or at least coming to some appreciation for what we mean by accountability. And how do we really put it in place? How do we express it is usually an important issue. And the final thing I would say is that at our peril at our church. We have gone through a number of rounds of thinking and and hiring and other things. But I think we have, at least I think at least some of us. Quite a few of us are at a point where we would love to have more people of color in our pews, but we know that that's a very long term process in the meanwhile, what we want to do is to build relationships within the broader community, the the Cambridge, Boston, Eastern noon, Eastern Massachusetts community, with groups that are working for similar with similar courses, similar names, whether they are people with whether they're groups coming from faith communities, or outside of that, and we are already doing some of that, but we want to intensify those efforts as a way of our, our enlarging our effectiveness or lighting the art that we can play in dismantling racism. So thank you. Paula Cole Jones 25:44 Thanks, Rashid. And Leon. So you can kind of see the pattern, I took the congregation so that adopted it first, the ones that are in process. Share, which you would like to share about that, you know, completely up to you what to share. That the question is, what difference does it make? whether our congregation does or does not adopt it? You're and you're on mute? Okay, no, Leon Spencer 26:13 I'm off mute. I've been sitting here pondering wondering where to begin. Um, there's the one part of me that wanted to talk about how my congregation is a good congregation. And you know, I can do that. That's true. They're good people. It's a small group, university town. And I think, today, you would say that my daughter is probably and one of the young men are probably two people of color, who are members. I, I moved myself to a friend status. Because I'm learning how to be in congregations. By the way, I've been a part of the UUA. But being a part of the UUA is a little different than being in congregation. Now, you can say the UUA is a complication. And it is, however, it's a little different to come home. A minister, real activists, oh, we have good contacts with local people of color groups, NAACP. A Latino group that we support, we're in a farm area, also, in Georgia. Um, we have a Black Lives Matter sign. And the Black Lives Matter sign, if we are going to live what we advertise, I think you have to look closer at the documents that we have within the church. And I think it's very important that we adopt a eighth principle. The discussion around adoption the eighth principle. We didn't agree not, we didn't said we weren't going to really deal with it. We said we weren't going to deal with it at this time. It was put on hold. For me, I'm at a point in life where I really don't want to put justice on hold. I don't want to put identity on hold. And when you talk about being anti racist, you talk about dealing specifically with racism. You're talking identity issues. Who are we? And so it's lonely, in a sense. So I can go out and other places and connect and be with activists. I can, but I'm really talking about my own identity and about how it is that we attract people to be a part of that process. We had three people of color members. And we all went in a different direction. We're still members, by the way two of us are. But it's a lot of work to be in the congregation, hi Pat, to be in the congregation and people talking about antiracism, talking about community and doing good things in the community. My minister sticks her neck out, she jumps out. I'll say that, but it's more than the minister being there, a minister can't be out there doing it alone. There are good people in the congregation who want to do justice work. But the discussion and to listen to the discussion at the annual meeting about why we hold this, I was hearing a hierarchy of oppression start to come up that well, what about women? And so well, what about women? What specifically about black women? Or Women of Color? I mean, it's like, well, the thing happens to you know, this comparison. That's a painful discussion to hear. Yeah, yeah. So I think we will move and adopting the eighth principle. But the process when you have a few people of color around is not one that I would choose want to be around to just listen to. Paula Cole Jones 31:42 Hey, Bruce, can you spotlight Lutricia, please. But oh, no, no, that was for Bruce, can I ask you one more question Leon, with UU World? Leon Spencer 31:56 I don't know if I'll answer that. You can ask it. Paula Cole Jones 31:59 You really don't have to but? Leon Spencer 32:01 I know that Paula Paula Cole Jones 32:02 Well, here we are. So you shared that you moved yourself to friends status, if your congregation had decided not to put it on hold, but had decided to make to move forward, but that have made a difference for you? Leon Spencer 32:20 Oh, certainly. Paula Cole Jones 32:22 Okay. Leon Spencer 32:23 Oh, absolutely. Paula Cole Jones 32:24 Good. All right. So that's what I wanted. And so as you hear that, think about what it is we have to share in terms of inviting other people into our UUA congregations, if we ourselves are not feeling like. Leon Spencer 32:40 Well, you know, people will call it, people don't have to verbalize that, you know, I'm just gonna move to a friend status. And I'll be here and I love you. And I'll be present. Hell, you could be present in the congregation and just do that. You could be present choose to be invisible. So, but that wasn't my choice. Paula Cole Jones 33:06 What I was saying is the likelihood that you would invite other people of color to the congregation is reduced. If that's the way that you've experienced it, right. Leon Spencer 33:19 Yeah. And they do we have an excellent reputation in the community. Yeah, absolutely. But, and what we do with social action and social service, but I think that we would really be able to attract more members or people of color who are not just guests. Paula Cole Jones 33:46 Okay. Thank you. So the last person to join us is sort of Lutricia Callair. Hello, Lutricia will you introduce yourself? How long have you been a you you? What congregation Are you a part of how, long have you been part of your congregation? And are there any particular hats that you wear? in the congregation or Lutricia and Leon or Jubilee trainers? Okay, ah, yeah, Lutricia Cullair 34:15 I'm a member of the Eno River. Unitarian Universalist Fellowship. And I've been a UU for about 30 years actually. A long time. I mean, Leon and I started in the same congregation in Columbia, South Carolina. Then I moved to North Carolina and I've just I've been a member of Eno River for about, oh, eight years. And you know, the reason that it's, it took me, it took me a while to get to you know, river because what right after I moved to North Carolina, I went to Eno River to talk about My work and I've been an activist, and a trainer for a long time, and particularly interested in anti racism. I started in civil rights movement. And so when I moved to North Carolina, I was interested in finding a UU congregation. And I went to Eno River. And I don't know how to describe my, my I don't want to say welcoming, because it wasn't particularly welcoming. But it was just it was, I got a sense that the work that I did, and my and my life's work around anti racism did not matter to this congregation. So at that point, I left and became and was in and out of Unitarian Universalism, became a member of the Church of the Larger Fellowship, when some time with Unity, and I came, came to Eno River when Reverend Cayer became the minister, because she just expressed a full throated commitment to anti racism, and making that a part of the work that the congregation did. And so that's, that's where I've been since. And I'm sad to say that. I don't you know, that. I don't think we at Eno River, we've we've stepped fully into doing the anti racism work. We're still struggling with whether or not we want to adopt the eighth principle. So there's just there's, you know, there's some disappointments with my membership there. But quite frankly, what I come away with is whatever congregation I come to, unfortunately, there are going to be some disappointments, because I just don't, I'm not sensing that. As a body as a UU body, or congregations, that we fully stepped into or taken on our work around anti racism, I think it's trendy is the thing to do. But being fully involved and being willing to take risks, and to put things on the line and, and to challenge people into accountability to challenge ourselves into accountability. I just haven't experienced that enough. I mean, there's some congregations that are that are there, but not it's not it's not a it's not a critical mass. We haven't reached that tipping point. And so you know, I don't, I think I'm a Unitarian, because I really do believe in the seven principles, and the eight, eight principles. And so I try to live those and it's UU, the UU church is the place where I have my best chance of doing that, I think. Paula Cole Jones 38:33 Thank you. Okay, so we may only have time for one more question, but but it'll be important, an important conversation. So looking forward, so the eighth principle potentially gives us a new starting point, right? Not entirely new, but but a new place to, to envision the future, to envision our congregations, how they, how they may function. And so in that place, so obviously, whatever has happened previously has already happened. From this point forward. How do you how do you envision the eighth principles potential to engage Unitarian Universalism? And then in a new way with the future and and you can also answer in this particular time point in time, when it's crystal clear to everyone that white supremacy is on its full display with what happened last week, and not that white supremacy just resides in one group, but what how does the eighth principle then began to shape your understanding of Unitarian Universalism in terms of how we show up in the world, or what is it that we want to say stand for in the larger world? What difference is it going to make moving forward? Okay. Ask the question. Lia, you look like you're ready. Lia Nagase 40:27 I was thinking I might say pass if you called on me. Paula Cole Jones 40:31 I read it wrong. what's possible? What's different? Or what could be different? Lutricia Cullair 40:47 The eighth principle is hard work Paula. Paula Cole Jones 40:51 Oh, yeah, yes. Lutricia Cullair 40:54 I mean, and what I, what I mean by that is sometimes I, I just think, put the work we have to do to recognize ourselves in the context of white supremacy, and racism. I'm not sure that we've done all the work we need to do. I think I think the eighth principle, if we were really practicing it, would be transformative, could change our relationship to not only our congregations, but to ourselves and to our community? So I see the possibilities, but it's, I don't think the eighth principle, and sometimes this is kind of how I hear it. It's, I guess, this, you know, sweet little thing that we do that is very heartwarming, and, and loving, and it is certainly that. But to get to that requires some hard work and facing some hard things that I don't think I'm not sure that it's a congregation face. And I don't want to sound cynical, because I'm incredibly hopeful. But I am trying to live in with truth, I just think its I think I think it's hard work. And I think what we'd have to face about ourselves, as a congregation, and as congregations, would be difficult. And I am not sure that we developed the muscle as Unitarians to do all the work that we need to do to make the eighth principle be real and transformative. But I think if we did that work, it would be it, it would just change our reality in terms of how we see our world and how we move in. Paula Cole Jones 42:49 Thanks Lutricia almost like the difference between the assuming that the work has been done versus that this opens up a whole new realm of the work that there is for us to do. Lutricia Cullair 43:03 Yes, yeah. Paula Cole Jones 43:05 Thanks. Okay. So let me let me open it. Any of you can come in and didn't want to put you put you on the spot Lia, I'm sorry. Lia Nagase 43:13 That's okay. And I'm sorry, my internet connection is a little breaky uppy. But that what Lutricia just shared, I think is is so onpoint. And what I was going to say is I think that honestly, well, I struggle with optimism these days. And I think if not here, where? If our group doesn't do this work, who is going to do this work? So I have my hopes, hopes pinned on us to keep moving forward in this work and, and it what I've experienced is a lot of folks who feel that they have hopefully you can still hear me I know my video is going Paula Cole Jones 43:58 We hear you Lia Nagase 43:59 Okay, um, is a lot of folks who think that they are quote there, they've done the work, they are now not racist, or they are anti racist. But, you know, we know that there is no there. We're not ever done. We have to keep doing it every day. And so I think that this brings that to light much as much as what Lutricia said and shared is that it It puts us back on the hook, to keep doing the work and to keep taking actions. So that's what it would mean. Paula Cole Jones 44:37 Thank you, Rashid. Were you wanting to come in? Rashid Shaikh 44:42 Yeah, I'd like to add that. That you know, I see it and this is just my perspective, not necessarily my my co-congregants. I see this as a process. I see this as a radical change. I see this as the illusionary process. And that, that add, it's not cookie cutter. It's a discovery process. You know, it gives us a framework in which to examine everything that we do internally, and sort of spiritually for ourselves, but also externally. And also within the country, there's sort of three levels, our spiritual growth, our, our congregational growth and how we project to the outside world. And eighth principle kind of touches on all of these aspects. In a very in a very, How shall I put it, in a very beautiful way, but but a way that is, at the same time, it gives you a responsibility, and it gives you Okay, it asked for accountability. Right. So it has it's sort of a whole network kind of a thing in itself. And I, you know, what I envision for my own congregation, personally, is that is that, you know, we can, you know, we are, you know, we are our mid size congregation, people is composed of people, and people are all at different levels, in different places. And I think that our goal is to bring more and more people to a better understanding and making a bit of a bigger commitment to, to dismantling racism. So it's sort of a, sort of a process. But actually, just to finish off, you know, the question you asked, is very much part of our discernment. And I think I said earlier that, that we could adopt a principle, we could take a vote and adopt the principles today, tomorrow, but But what does that really mean? What What difference would it make? How do we envision the future living with a principle or the issues that we need to discern, and we're not trying to put some things in place that would really help us to enact a discernment process? Paula Cole Jones 47:31 Yeah, thank you. So Allison, and Doreian, you are and well, let me go Shannon chance to respond. And then I'll come back to you, Allison and Doreion with a slightly different framing of the question, Shannon. Shannon Lang 47:49 I, for me, what I envision is that I wouldn't necessarily have to attend twice a month, BLUU services for my full spiritual nourishment. So when I attend a BLUU service, which is Black Lives of Unitarian Universalism, it feels like, it feels like church, like home. And I love my congregation. But sometimes I feel like before I go into a committee meeting, or before I go into that congregation, I kind of have to put on a little bit of my Stormtrooper armor, just to like, gird myself, because somebody's gonna say something a little bit harmful, they are not going to mean it. But it's going to happen. And I've just got a, just gird myself up for it. And I know they love me, and I love them, too. So what I'm hoping is that with the awareness for the eighth principle, and if we pass the eighth principle, that we're all doing this work together, so that the harm that does come is less and less and less, so that my home congregation can more and more and more that I don't have to put on so much armor, every time I'm going into a committee meeting, every time I'm going to church, that I'm feeling more and more nourishment, and that I don't just have to get that from something separate from BLUU, that I can just get it from wholly and solely from UCE, and I know there's so many of my congregation that are committed to doing this work. And I love and I appreciate them. And so many of them are on this call tonight. And I love you all. But that's just that's just the truth that that's what I envision is that I can find it and get more and more of it there. Paula Cole Jones 50:17 Thank you. Thank you. So um Allison and Doreion. Both of your congregations have the eighth principle. What have you seen change? Not the long version. But But name one or two changes that you've seen your before and after with the eighth principle? How, how has it made the congregation mate made given you more of a sense of belonging? Right, because I think that's something that it may be hard for people to, to get the people of color the work to belong in the congregation. And as you just said, Shannon, how much of yourself really feels present and engaged, as opposed to having to put on your armor? Right? So what what has changed? What's that before and after? For you, Allison? And then and Doreion, and either order? I say this, because eighth principle is so new still to us, that we're just beginning to identify some of the cultural shifts that are taking place. Allison looks like you're speaking. Can you take yourself off mute, please? Allison Jacobs 51:48 Yes, yes. Um, well, I think that I'm not sure our congregation fully understood what it meant, would mean to adopt the eighth principle, but Paula Cole Jones 52:05 that's right. Allison Jacobs 52:08 We have an Eighth Principle Task Force. And so we look at different things that happen in each of our committees, and each of our programs through the lens of the eighth principle, we're also making a conscious effort to use that paper that came out Widening the Circle of Concern. So we're, you know, we're, we're asking the congregation to take a look at this, and to, you know, see what it's really like to be a welcoming congregation, and welcoming everyone into the congregation, because that can be an issue, you know, even when people have their best intentions. And so I think that looking at things through the lens of the eighth principle and getting some ideas and some, some avenues that need to be worked on and have an open discussion about it is very helpful. I think that having the eighth principle framework allows us to kind of cut to the quick, in a lot of instances, we don't have to kind of like, go around the edges of something, but you know, we can just kind of shoot for the shoot for the heart of it and say, you know, this is what someone experienced? Or maybe we need to look at something in a different way, because it's going to have a different, you know, the impact. So is it the intention is not going to be what the impact is, I forget how that saying goes? Paula Cole Jones 53:51 Are you more likely to invite other people of color to the church now than you were before? Allison Jacobs 53:57 Oh, yes, as a matter of fact, I have just come off of doing a public service announcement on ALLELO, which is our community television media, about the church. And one of the things that I you know, I mentioned to them about vice president of the board and how we have ADORE meetings and we have Jubilee training and we have social justice. And we have OWL and you know, we we welcome all who welcome all that's, you know, that was the tagline we welcome all welcome all. So, you know, we'll see you know, I think that we're, I think that UUs are like a really well kept secret. You know, especially during these times when so many people want to do something and, and join together. You know for good when these crazy times and they would love to go to a church to represent or society or whatever you want to call it. And that represents their, their thoughts and their feelings and their principles about things. So I'm hoping that we get a good response. So yes, I am inviting. I'm hoping that more people will be coming to the church. And I think it's the eighth principle as a way to be more welcoming. Paula Cole Jones 55:21 So it sounds like your confidence has really grown in the church with the work around the eighth principle. Allison Jacobs 55:27 Yes, yes. If the eighth principle wasn't there, I don't think I would be there. Paula Cole Jones 55:32 Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Doreion, how about you? Doreion Colter 55:37 Well, I'd like to address some of Shannon's things that I've seen in our congregation. Now we have the eighth principle, we look at everything we do through the lens, so the eighth principle. We have a BIPOC group, and they meet regularly, and BIPOC are included. And we look at everything to make sure BIPOC have representation and they're part of the decision making. The services have gotten to be better. We had a watch night service that actually said or celebrated the upon the proclamation for watch night for people of color for black people, in 1860s 1616 1682. When with the Emancipation Proclamation, at at the center of the service, and we have been having services where we have other ministers and other music present. So Matter of fact, so our services are coming up, they're getting better, they're becoming more diverse. And we are really working my church, I can say it's really working and striving to incorporate the eighth principle into everything it does. And it's it's largely because of the members, we have members who are actually with their heart committed to making the eighth principle, the rule of law as far as Unitarians. Paula Cole Jones 57:35 Thank you. Thank you. So Lutricia and Leon, I do have a specific question I want to ask you. But there are two there are two. So let me tell you that the question that I've that's kind of been on my heart with the two of you here is both of you raised your children, in UU churches, and, and we didn't have the eighth principle then, probably didn't even have Jubilee training then. So there, there are ways that the church just didn't, didn't work, right? for young people of color growing up. If you would like to, and you don't have to, but if you would like to, you can comment on that. The other thing I want to ask you too, is this in terms of Jubilee training, which, by the way, we've we've kept Jubilee training going for 20 plus years. It's revamped now we have set it up so that we can do it online. But I'm just thinking in terms of Jubilee training and the eighth principle What were you to say in terms of people's ability to kind of figure out what some of their next steps might be if they have the Jubilee experience? So either of you either of those questions however you want to take it on? Leon Spencer 59:15 Those are big questions. Paula Cole Jones 59:17 I know we want everything we can get tonight Leon Spencer 59:21 yeah, I understand. Um, and and so does many Unitarian Universalist communities. want everything that they can get people of color. um My kids and parent I'm gonna jump up and say our kids and a couple experiences I'm certainly experience racism that even today that some of our friends from within a congregation would say, well, we didn't know that. But our kids, my kids knew how to deal with racism. And I think Kevin and Mike that Tupac? Yeah, um, they knew how to deal with racism. But that didn't really help them much as far as connecting in a community. Now, there was not just racism in the Unitarian Universalist Church. There was racism in oh a trip to the mountain. There was racism in the community we lived in. Kids are smart, they watch how decision making happens. How did you decide that it's more important to go on to save the animal crusade than to stand up for what was happening in South Africa at the time? kids tell you stories later. Yeah, the things that happened to them and how they get the skills to work through them. Let me say something I'm left hanging would I think my church will adopt the eighth principle? Absolutely. I have no doubt when they get, but they're not, they're going to adopt the eight principle. But I still wonder without the kind of anti racism understanding, can they sustain the eighth principle? And that's where Jubilee comes in. Because it then sort of push people into looking through another lens with a community that's beyond. So yeah, we can adopt the principle and it'll be there. But I think that we have to do things to sustain that within community. And I don't know if I'm, I'm making sense, because I'm sure, you know, and I look at my congregation, I'm Unitarian, I'm there. They're the, and we'll adopt the a principle. But what happens then? How do we sustain? Doreion Colter 1:02:33 So Leon? Lutricia Cullair 1:02:35 Have you finished the? Leon Spencer 1:02:38 Probably not, but that's okay, Pat. Lutricia Cullair 1:02:43 Yeah, Leon Spencer 1:02:44 I didn't mean to go there. But I did. Lutricia Cullair 1:02:47 Yeah, I would have hoped that when my children were growing up in the Unitarian Church, because I joined the church, primarily for them. And because I thought that there was a social justice program. So and I liked the Unitarians, the the religious education program, but I don't, you know, my I have a son now who will not set foot in a Unitarian Church. And what I think he missed, and I think, young people of color missed. And what I had hoped the church would be able to do, would be able to recognize them, as African Americans, with a, with a, with an identity as African Americans that was accepted and appreciated in the church. And I think particularly with Earl who, you know, Earl, and you know, Earl Paula, I think, what Earl what Earl discovered was, this is not my house, and I'm not coming back. Paula Cole Jones 1:03:57 And he went on to become a minister too, right? Lutricia Cullair 1:03:59 Yeah. And so he, you know, and you know, he's a wonderful man. But I think he got the picture early on that you know, what, this, these are not my people. This is not my church. And therefore, I'm not coming. I'm not coming back. And I don't think that the church ever recognized our children, Leon, as black children, with life experiences and a culture that was different than the life experiences and cultures of other of white children in the church. So you know, we let your right because then I remember we, we had this covenant, first conversation with Stephanie, when she told us things that they went through, that we never knew that they were going through. She told us all kinds of stories of the story about you know, Earl, wanting to do The soup kitchen and the white kids wanted to do the animal shelter. And he got it was just all those stories. And they tried to make it work because it was their parents belonged. So they were, they tried that, you know, they tried to make it work. So I think that's what we missed. And obviously, you know, having an eighth principle and a beloved community could could have helped with all of that. Leon Spencer 1:05:27 Absolutely. Lutricia Cullair 1:05:27 It could have, you know, young black men trying to recognize themselves in the Unitarian Church, when everything outside of there is seen them as hostile and problem children and problem people, and they don't get the benefit of a doubt and then to not be seen in your congregation. And I think, you know, I think that was the real issue. And and, you know, with regard to the training, and you Leon and, Paula we talked earlier today, so you know, where my heart is, what and what I'm dealing with, so let me know, if you don't want me to say anything else. Paula Cole Jones 1:06:11 Okay, well, let's hold go there. Leon Spencer 1:06:17 you think that wouldwork. Lutricia Cullair 1:06:21 I don't think that's fair that I have to hold there. Paula Cole Jones 1:06:25 But what I want to do, I'm really, I'm looking at the clock, and I want to make I think an important. Lutricia Cullair 1:06:30 okay. Paula Cole Jones 1:06:33 So I, in my estimate, there have been like two generations that have grown up - your children. And then you know, the group of children Elandria Williams, Gregory Boyd, there's a whole swath of children who are now probably crossing from young adults into, you know, the older folks and their children now, and I know that Sheila Schuh was on on the call, this is a conversation that she and I engage in to their children now who are in religious education in our churches, or are just coming out. So because one of the things that excites me about the eighth principle is for congregations that adopted it, and work to make it real, then the UU experience for the young people who are in the churches now might be different. Children of color, it might be a different experience. And they may not get turned off and turned away and have to find their religious or spiritual home someplace else. That excites me. But it only happened if the congregations take this seriously. You know, and what's so important about this conversation that we've been having tonight, I want to thank all of you from the bottom of my heart, for sharing your personal perspectives. Because a lot of folks don't know, don't hear this. People of color, this my take. I'm not speaking for everyone else, maybe but people of color. We are. We are used to adapting to white institutions. We have to learn that in order to live in the United States. And so what we experienced this not necessarily. Some people may know. But for a lot of people, they just may have little or no concept of the kind of experience and impact that even our liberal and progressive environments have on us as people. Yeah. If you agree with that. Let me see by raising your hand. You are no, yes. But the rest of you. Yeah, yeah. And so this conversation was real important. As we began, you know, part of belonging is being able to show up fully. Yeah. And this is a part of our story. So we are at 9:22 you can put us back on gallery view. Thank you all so very, very much. Anyone in the chat you feel free to put your thanks. I like kind of this, this live action thank you card, so you can put in chat, you know your appreciation for the people who have shared this evening. But let's go back on gallery view. So that it brings us I don't know if you can unspotlight are so that we're on In the room together. And yes, Rashid, Rashid Shaikh 1:10:06 I'd like to say one thing, if I may take one minute is sort of part of my personal story and, and as part of my personal story from the point from where I come from. So I'm an Indian, and I'm a Muslim. And that's a toxic combination to be in India, because Muslims are by the majority. It's a very complicated situation anyway. We are having some very rich conversations here in the US right now as well on what's going on in our country. But the situation from where I come about, I have a lot of family and relatives and friends living, is absolutely horrible. Where these conversations are not even possible, because because the racism, as you know, phobia, just mainstream. So I am excited about the principle, despite all the difficulties of defining and understanding and parsing and everything else that we have been talking about, because at least we are beginning a conversation about this, that would give recognition and and place for people like us, people of color in our denomination. So I'm grateful for this opportunity. But I wanted to just praise my identity as something that propels me towards this work. Thanks so much for indulging me. Paula Cole Jones 1:11:43 Yeah, thank you, Rasihd I want to say to you, and everyone else can bear witness. I did an in depth interview with Rashid about a week ago. And as you shared your your background, Rashid and your perspective, it had a big impact on me. So I want to thank you. And just to let you know that I'm still kind of left with my my thoughts and feelings about, you know, what it's like for you as a person who grew up Muslim to be in Unitarian Universalism. So you've got the, you know, the cross cultural and interfaith intersections, and it gives you a different perspective on things. We have a lot to learn from people like you. Rashid Shaikh 1:12:29 Thank you. Paula Cole Jones 1:12:34 So I see, Allison and Doreion, you have some final words before we I wanted to go back into the large session. So if you can make them concise, that would be helpful. Allison. Allison Jacobs 1:12:50 Thank you. I just wanted to add that the eighth principle, I think it's so important because covers that conversation about, I can't be racist, I'm Unitarian, which, you know, if I hear that one more time, I think I'm going to just throw up. So I think that, you know, okay, so you're not racist. So, okay, let's adopt the eighth principle. You know, it's, Paula Cole Jones 1:13:18 we can do this, folks. Doreion, How about you? Doreion Colter 1:13:25 Well, my thought is that if you adopt and when you adopt, not if, but when you adopt the eighth principle, this going to need to need there's going to be a need, for vast education for the congregation. And I think our adult education department led by Camille Loya, has done a fantastic job of leading us with common reads on white supremacy, dismantling it and how it shows up for all, of us in all of us everywhere. And having us to do channeling and and thinking and just talking to each other. So is it's going to take education, to to actually get it ingrained in the members of the congregation. Paula Cole Jones 1:14:30 Okay, thank you very much, Dorian. So if we can go back to gallery view. I wanted to say to everyone, so this is the second at least the second session where we've asked you to listen, rather than engage in conversation. I want to thank you for your you know, listening as a great gift that we Give to each other. So I want to thank you for that gift. Also, knowing that some of you may have questions and ways that you wanted to weigh in. But I wanted the people of color to actually direct the conversation as opposed to having to respond to the questions. So and, and also so that we can maximize the amount of time that we get to here. Because, you know, although we do 8 to 9:30, Eastern Time, that's really not a lot of time for a conversation. So I just want to want to let everyone know how much we appreciate you being here as part of the community and witnessing there, this is bearing witness. And this is going to be an important part of our transformation, as we move forward that we bear witness. And that witnessing is the telling of our story. And that story should change as we change. So I want to thank you, it's 9:28 we wish that we could talk with all of you or hear from you. But that just doesn't work in this timeframe. And Bruce, thank you for your ongoing partnership and for holding the space with us. And you're going to give us the closing reading Bruce Pollack-Johnson 1:16:25 a few more words. Who wrote the How to be an Anti-racist. History will tell us whether January 6 transformed America and even American politics in the way 9/11 did. What I hope is that it does.That it causes us to overcome our denial and that Americans become serious about rooting out this terrorist threat and holding the people who attacked the citadel of America accountable. But even rooting out what is radicalizing these people which is racism, white supremacy, patriarchy, sexism, homophobia and fascist ideas. That's absolutely critical. My advice is that being antiracist is a journey. It's not something you declare that you are, it's something you strive to be just like it's going to be a journey trying to transform this country. I just want to encourage us all to be a part of that. Because hopefully, that's the pulse of history right now, to really transform our country and ensure that January 6 never happens again. If we don't root out racism, we are bringing on another January 6. Paula Cole Jones 1:17:44 Thank you Bruce excellent selection. Thank you, so nice to work with you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai